Adding ground fighting to Okinawan karate

[punisher73]

It's perfect advise. If, in old times, Okinawan martial arts training was complemented with Okinawan sumo, tegumi, shima or any other wrestling art practiced in Okinawa in those days, plus kobudo; in modern times martial arts training include karate (standing), judo (throws and ground) and kobudo (weapons). For instance, Miyazato Eiichi sensei, head of Goju Ryu Jundokan, was a very well known judoka.

In other words, we can relive the debate about whether or not there was ground-fighting in old sparring practice or techniques ingrained in classical kata --and we will probably not reach a consensus; or we can accept that cross-training was an integral part of any martial art, and that most dedicated martial artists probably had some background in tegumi, shima or Okinawan sumo (if not, they probably looked for it) and kobudo. In short, for modern karateka, adding ground-fighting to their arts is a necessity, but that is not new in Okinawan karate. It used to be that way.

This doesn't mean that all karateka practiced tegumi in 19th century, and it doesn't mean that all karateka practiced judo in 20th century. Lots of seniors in most karate organizations have trained in judo (I know, it is an impression based on my limited experience, but there are no statistics about it that I know).

Good point, there is an interesting discussion on Iane Abernathy's site on this same topic. That Gichin Funakoshi talks about in his biography that the Okinwan wrestling and how it was a popular sport that everyone participated in. It also discusses that Kano wrote a report saying that karate was judo, and how Gichin may have down played the grappling aspects of karate to set it apart from judo and make it it's own thing. Old style judo also taught strikes and the line between judo and karate was very thin.

 

[Explorer]

Heck, there is a Judoka on our board who will SHOW anyone how much punching and kicking there is in Judo. No leg is bypassed when looking for a reap, sweep or anything else. A half hour of his horseplay leaves my legs as sore as free fighting.

If you ever get the chance ask a mature judoka or ju jitsu(ka?) to interpret your forms from their perspective ... it is illuminating.

 

[Perpetual White Belt]

If you ever get the chance ask a mature judoka or ju jitsu(ka?) to interpret your forms from their perspective ... it is illuminating.

Ever as a FMA practitioner to interpret your forms? Just as illuminating. I'll actually be doing a seminar this weekend at an Isshin-Ryu school, and I plan on covering just that subject.

Anyway back to the subject. If you have a good grasp on grappling basic you pretty much know enough to avoid getting into to trouble. I've found that knowing enough about wrestling and Jujutsu, I can pretty much stay on my feet or get back to my feet with very little trouble and it seems to me that you've got a good program going.

 

[Explorer]

Actually, one of my sensei, Dusty Seale, is trained in Modern Arnis ... directly under Remy. It really gets our thinking out of the box.

 

[chinto01]

I have recently started taking bjj lessons to compliment my Shorin Ryu training. One of the things I have discovered is how much I love to be on my feet. It has opened my eyes however to the fact that a lot of the stuff you do on your feet can also be accomplished on the ground with some minor alterations.

In the spirit of bushido!

Rob

 

[arnisador]

Actually, one of my sensei, Dusty Seale, is trained in Modern Arnis ... directly under Remy. It really gets our thinking out of the box.

As a Mdoern Arnis isntructor and former Okinawan karateka, I know just what you mean!

 

[Errant108]

Good points, Punisher! One area where I diverge from JJ technique is 'keyhole locks' ... ONLY because they keep me on the ground, with my hands tied up while my opponent's friends massage my kidneys with their shoes!

I'm looking to get off the ground asap or sooner!

Why would you eliminate key locks? Wouldn't the trauma it can cause be worth it?

 

[Explorer]

Why would you eliminate key locks? Wouldn't the trauma it can cause be worth it?

Hi Errant,

I wouldn't eliminate the locks as they are useful as an example of what you might face in case your attacker is trained in sport JJ. The trauma caused by breaking an arm or dislocating a joint MAY be worth it given the right circumstances. However, the time it takes to apply the lock and the fact that it tends to use both hands leaves me defenseless against the bad guys buddies (and they ALL have them). So, while I'm applying a keyhole lock to the bad guy ... his buddies are applying blunt force trauma to my head with their boots.

In my experience the moment the bad guy appears to be losing is when his friends begin their attacks. My opinion is that a defender must get off the ground immediately -- if not sooner.

xo

 

[Darkside]

from what I've seen at the dojo where I've been training there is plenty of grappling, joint locks and groundwork in okinawan karate. We study ryukyu hon kenpo kobujustu which is a very traditional style of shorin-ryu. I guess it all depends on what okinawan style you're training in, the instructors and what they've been taught. Alot of other shorin-ryu schools i've seen don't have nearly as much grappling or groundwork implemented in their systems. Most of that ground work centering on attacks to stun or deter an opponent so you can get back on your feet and fight. I'm sure alot of schools on okinawa, especially those who started training for sport and competition stopped teaching the ground aspects of the art as they didn't apply to what they were using the art for. Either way on the street i'd hate to find myself on my back trying to grapple with someone while his buddies stomp my head in..lol

 

[Perpetual White Belt]

from what I've seen at the dojo where I've been training there is plenty of grappling, joint locks and groundwork in okinawan karate. We study ryukyu hon kenpo kobujustu which is a very traditional style of shorin-ryu. I guess it all depends on what okinawan style you're training in, the instructors and what they've been taught. Alot of other shorin-ryu schools i've seen don't have nearly as much grappling or groundwork implemented in their systems. Most of that ground work centering on attacks to stun or deter an opponent so you can get back on your feet and fight. I'm sure alot of schools on okinawa, especially those who started training for sport and competition stopped teaching the ground aspects of the art as they didn't apply to what they were using the art for. Either way on the street i'd hate to find myself on my back trying to grapple with someone while his buddies stomp my head in..lol

Ah, the karate of Odo Seikichi Sensei... I believe Odo Sensei trained in Judo at some point in his life, but my brain isn't functioning at full capacity right now. However, I believe the amount of grappling involved would depend on the instructor. The kata were mostly striking. Wansu has what Odo Sensei would call a Judo throw in it, but other than that Chinto and Seisan, I don't recall any other kata that had these techniques overtly in them. If you understand grappling you could interpret some of the movements as joint locks or throws though.

 

[Omar B]

In my experience my old Master used to do a judo class first thing Saturday mornings. If you wanted to learn judo in an informal way that's what we did, plus you end up spendig all Saturday at the dojo, love it! First judo, then go to lunch, then seido, then another hour break, then some heavy sparring from an hour.

 

[chinto]

Ah, the karate of Odo Seikichi Sensei... I believe Odo Sensei trained in Judo at some point in his life, but my brain isn't functioning at full capacity right now. However, I believe the amount of grappling involved would depend on the instructor. The kata were mostly striking. Wansu has what Odo Sensei would call a Judo throw in it, but other than that Chinto and Seisan, I don't recall any other kata that had these techniques overtly in them. If you understand grappling you could interpret some of the movements as joint locks or throws though.

there are a lot of throws in gojushiho, and in many of the pinan kata and meany in annanku as well if you know where and how to look for them. remember at least for the traditional Okinawan kata there are at least 5 techniques for each of the moves, and grabbing and grappling, locks, and throws are common ones in a lot of kata.

 

[Darkside]

Ah, the karate of Odo Seikichi Sensei... I believe Odo Sensei trained in Judo at some point in his life, but my brain isn't functioning at full capacity right now. However, I believe the amount of grappling involved would depend on the instructor. The kata were mostly striking. Wansu has what Odo Sensei would call a Judo throw in it, but other than that Chinto and Seisan, I don't recall any other kata that had these techniques overtly in them. If you understand grappling you could interpret some of the movements as joint locks or throws though.

From what I know he did train in judo when he was younger. Most of the kata as you said are strike intensive but do contain joint locks/escapes in the bunkai. Most of the extensive grappling i've seen has come in the self defense techniques with judo like throws, joint locks, takedowns, leg/arm locks on the ground. Having taken BJJ and judo previously it was rather suprising seeing such things being implemented at an okinawan karate dojo. It really made me realize how watered down some okinawan karate had become elsewhere. That and of course the bogu kumite :supcool:

 

[fuyugoshi]

BUT, what I'm really interested in is ideas on how we, as karateka, should be adding ground fighting concepts OR the best practices of dojos who are already adding throws and ground fighting.

xo

In old times, people practiced Okinawan wrestling and karate. Wrestling was a popular sport in the islands, pretty much like baseball in the USA now. During the XX century, judo replaced Okinawan wrestling, so a lot of karate instructors also hold rank in judo.

So you have three ways:
a) teach karate and judo at your dojo.
b) include judo or wrestling in your karate class (groundfighting hour, or groundfighting day)
c) practice all your techniques in three scenarios: standing, on your knees and on your back.
d) all of the above.

Instead of judo, you can teach wrestling or bjj. In my opinion, karateka doesn't need to be an expert in groundfighting, but needs to develop enough skills to survive a real common street fight. If the trainee expects hardcore fights ahead in his future, then his training must be different than the training of a common student who attends classes because of recreational or fitness motivations.

 

[Zendokan]

Two words: DAIDO JUKU.

Look at youtube and wikipedia for more information.

 

[Perpetual White Belt]

That and of course the bogu kumite :supcool:

Yes! Thank you Nakamura Sensei!!!

 

[fuyugoshi]

Two words: DAIDO JUKU.

Look at youtube and wikipedia for more information.

That is Japanese mma evolved from hard contact karate, right?

 

[Zendokan]

That is Japanese mma evolved from hard contact karate, right?

Yeah, you're right, it started with Kyokushin Karate and Judo, nowadays it's these two with Wrestling, JuJutsu and BJJ. Saying that it's MMA is a bit overkill since there are more rules in Daido Juku then in MMA. It's more an alround hard-contact style. You could see it more as "what would a Kyokushin karateka do when he gets grabbed?" type of style.
Alot of fun, even if I say it so myself.

http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=M5AvCcLwaJQ&feature=related

greetz,

Zendokan

 

[Hyper_Shadow]

Original Tode is not restricted to standing up with your opponent and exchanging blows. It's just not sensible. Especially if you throw sand at someone and the wrestle them down to deliver some very decisive conclusion to an encounter. It is also highly unfeasible to believe that every movement in Kata is striking. Therefore it should be very logical to assume that Okinawan Tode has in fact a diverse and effective array of grappling techniques that should be taught.

 

[allenjp]

I don't mean to stir the pot, but...

There have been a lot of comments made here about limiting your groundfighting training to only being able to get back up once taken down. No offense but, bad idea.

Now, before you get started on me about real SD vs. sport fighting situations, let me say that even though my training up to now has been almost all groundfighting, I agree that the ground is the last place you want to be in a SD scenario. I get that, and I am not advocating that anyone go getting on the ground in that situation.

However, if you do get taken down despite your best efforts, or if you fall down, slip, or whatever else, and you're up against someone who knows what they're doing on the ground, or is just plainly a huge strong behemoth, good luck getting back up. It just aint as easy as it seems, and it is impractical to expect to rely on that as your only means of defense on the ground. Even if you do manage to get back up, it's highly likely you may go down again. The plain and simple fact is this: it is EXTREMELY DIFFICULT to avoid being taken down by someone who knows how to do it, and is determined, or even by someone who is just plain bigger than you.

So to cut it short, I've said it before, and I'll say it again. If someone gets you on the ground you had BETTER know what you are doing down there. Getting back up is great, and should be the first thing you do. But it is just impractical to think that you will always be able to get back up.

All that said I congratulate you guys for even thinking about incorporating groundfighting into your training. Many don't, and also many groundfighters don't train stand up because they are convinced that their way is better. In my opinion, cross training can only make you better.