Adam Chan - Are forms useless?

[drop bear]

I agree. But again, only to an extent. Just what does "formless" really mean? When you move you are still using biomechanics. So are you using the same biomechanics from your forms or not? We can talk abstractly about expressing concepts and linkages, etc all day long. But you are still moving and still using biomechanics of some sort. Is it the biomechanics taught in your forms, or is it not? And if it is the biomechanics taught in your forms....then why wouldn't we expect it to look like recognizable Wing Chun?

Now I realize that in a real exchange you aren't going to always be in a good position...you might stumble, you might get caught at an odd angle, or you might get rocked and loose your structure! But within a couple of beats someone should be back on track again....in other words....snap right back into their Wing Chun. So at times it might not look like Wing Chun because it isn't Wing Chun! But in a back and forth exchange of sparring or a real fight, those times should be minimal. If nothing in the fight looks like Wing Chun, then there is a problem!

Now.....too bad Nobody Important (Dave) is not around for this discussion! Because his premise in the past was that Wing Chun was a system that taught fine motor skills to be used to refine or add to another system's gross motor skills. So....if this is really the case, then the sparring or fighting would look like the base system because it would be using those "gross skills". The Wing Chun may only show up on occasion when some of the "fine" skills it teaches come into play! I find this to be the case with my Wing Chun Boxing! Western Boxing is the base...the gross motor skill. So basic sparring and fighting looks like boxing. The Wing Chun is used to add refinements and specific useful applications. So I have found that I HAVE been using Wing Chun in the way that Dave proposed it was intended to be used! But we spend a lot of time training that "gross motor skill" from boxing. For some Wing Chun guys that end up looking like crappy kickboxing when they spar it may be because they are technically trying to use the same idea.....but they have never bothered to spend the time actually developing the "gross motor skill" that they end up using in their fighting!

You also have a whole bunch of comparatively garbage wing chun fighters.

You just don't have the maywhethers who can take a really complicated approach like counter fighting and make it work through superior skill.

I can't make that system work. So I go with the much more boring authodox boxing.

So I look very generic due to personal skill level.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The term formless can only be used in the striking art. It won't be able to use in the throwing art. In order to apply your "hip throw", you have to put your

- right leg in front of your opponent's right leg.
- left leg in front of your opponent's left leg.
- ...

There are certain requirement that you have to meet.

I'll disagree, though only somewhat. Some takedowns can lose their "form" and be used in different ways. I suppose it depends how you define a "technique", though. Some arts/styles define each variation of a thing as a separate technique, so there are at least 4 (what I could count quickly today when a student asked) "techniques" in Judo that we (in NGA) simply refer to as "leg sweep". Some don't look very much like each other. They are all recognizable by the sweeping of the leg or some similar action (obviously), but if someone was looking for NGA "forms" in them, they wouldn't see our Classical Leg Sweep in anything but osoto gari. And there are more extreme examples, but I'd have to dig up a video of the techniques, because nobody would know them by our names, I think.

So, if you identify a "technique" like NGA does, then even throws can become "formless". If you define them as Judo (and many others) do, perhaps not as much.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Now.....too bad Nobody Important (Dave) is not around for this discussion! Because his premise in the past was that Wing Chun was a system that taught fine motor skills to be used to refine or add to another system's gross motor skills. So....if this is really the case, then the sparring or fighting would look like the base system because it would be using those "gross skills". The Wing Chun may only show up on occasion when some of the "fine" skills it teaches come into play!

I was talking about this with someone recently. WC has always looked like it would be an interesting fit with the relatively simple striking side of my primary art. Would it add anything useful? I don't know - I've not found anyone with experience in both. But I suspect it would, and I think if WC was trained with NGA, it's likely the structure of NGA would be more apparent (because the art requires more movement) in the combination. I know it would for me, but I'm not sure if that's a fair assessment, since I've made a long habit of bringing my cross-training into my NGA.

 

[TMA17]

You also have a whole bunch of comparatively garbage wing chun fighters.

You just don't have the maywhethers who can take a really complicated approach like counter fighting and make it work through superior skill.

I can't make that system work. So I go with the much more boring authodox boxing.

So I look very generic due to personal skill level.

It does seem that way. I've found the typical WC fighter is often less fit and less serious. Most boxers train much harder and are in better shape.

 

[TMA17]

I grew up with boxing. I love western boxing. I'm very new to WC. I've only been studying it for 2 months (Moy Yat) and have developed a strong liking to it. I've done far more reading up on it than actually practicing it. The forms and punches are much more rigid to me. With boxing, it's more fluid. However, my sifu is very fast and fluid. So I think it can be that once you get the footwork down really well. The forms really help and demonstrate the center line and weight distribution/taking your opponents weight. I don't know how far you deviate from those and still maintain that. I guess in time I'll find out lol.

Even with only 2 months of training in it, I can see the benefits. An early observation so far is that it really does to appear be an art that is very direct, simple and meant to end fights quickly as possible within their range. Maybe that can be said with other arts too, but I don't see WC being an art that is meant for combat in the sense that I don't think it's designed for going 12 rounds in a ring. My .02.

 

[geezer]

It does seem that way. I've found the typical WC fighter is often less fit and less serious. Most boxers train much harder and are in better shape.

I think you mean the typical WC practitioner. WC fighters are not all that common or "typical".

...I mean if you want to fight, competitive arts like boxing, kickboxing, muay thai, MMA and so forth offer so many more opportunities. And if you want to fight "on the street" they get you to a point of effective competency faster.

This is not that WC can't be effective, just that most WC practitioners like to engage in chess games like chi-sau and think about fighting more than actually doing it. In fact, I'd put myself in that category ...especially as I move further into my 60s and am dealing with some chronic pain from old injuries. So, say what you will, ...at least I'm honest and not deluding myself!

 

[TMA17]

I think you mean the typical WC practitioner. WC fighters are not all that common or "typical".

...I mean if you want to fight, competitive arts like boxing, kickboxing, muay thai, MMA and so forth offer so many more opportunities. And if you want to fight "on the street" they get you to a point of effective competency faster.

This is not that WC can't be effective, just that most WC practitioners like to engage in chess games like chi-sau and think about fighting more than actually doing it. In fact, I'd put myself in that category ...especially as I move further into my 60s and am dealing with some chronic pain from old injuries. So, say what you will, ...at least I'm honest and not deluding myself!

Good points, I agree. Well said.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It does seem that way. I've found the typical WC fighter is often less fit and less serious. Most boxers train much harder and are in better shape.

This is one of the areas where our variables get confounded. If two people have equal ability, the one with better fitness will win the vast majority of the time. If the more fit person also trained more consistently and with better intention in their practice, they will also be more skilled. That is irrespective of the style, assuming both styles are reasonably effective for fighting.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

So, if you identify a "technique" like NGA does, then even throws can become "formless". If you define them as Judo (and many others) do, perhaps not as much.

For the throwing art, in order to make a throw work, the

1. rooting leg,
2. attacking leg,
3. major hand (ex, sleeve hold - control the arm),
4. minor hand (ex, lapel hold - control the body),

all have to be at the right place and at the right time. IMO, it's far from "formless".

 

[Gerry Seymour]

For the throwing art, in order to make a throw work, the

1. rooting leg,
2. attacking leg,
3. major hand (ex, sleeve hold - control the arm),
4. minor hand (ex, lapel hold - control the body),

all have to be at the right place and at the right time. IMO, it's far from "formless".

I guess that comes down to how you define "form". I can do an Arm Bar with the legs swapped in most variants. I can change the angle to his body. I can do it from the other side of the arm. I can do it from the top or bottom of the arm. I can do it while standing, kneeling, sitting, or laying down. For the pivot point, I can use my hand, my arm pit, my knee, my shoulder, my chest, my hip, my thigh, or my forearm. If using my hand, I can use the knife edge, the palm, or the thumb-finger web. I can do it with or without a wrist lock. To us, those are all "Arm Bar".

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I guess that comes down to how you define "form".

There are throws. There is also the most effective throw. For the most effective throw, everything has to be perfect.

For example, some throw that you can apply when your hand grab on your opponent's wrist. But it will be more effective to control that elbow joint because the distance is closer. In formless approach, you may find the throwing opportunity when you can control your opponent's wrist. But to control your opponent's elbow joint, you will need to plan it ahead of the time.

IMO,

- formless is to let a situation happen, you than take advantage on it.
- non-formless is to plan ahead of the time.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

There are throws. There is also the most effective throw. For the most effective throw, everything has to be perfect.

For example, some throw that you can apply when your hand grab on your opponent's wrist. But it will be more effective to control that elbow joint because the distance is closer. In formless approach, you may find the throwing opportunity when you can control your opponent's wrist. But to control your opponent's elbow joint, you will need to plan it ahead of the time.

IMO,

- formless is to let a situation happen, you than take advantage on it.
- non-formless is to plan ahead of the time.

I like that, John. I'm probably 2/3 formless, then.

 

[TMA17]

Being new to martial arts, I find forms fun and a great exercise in using your body in a new way. Someone on here on an older thread I was reading said their sifu said to him, if you want to be a fighter I'll show you 4 punches and 3 kicks and you can practice that to perfection....something along those lines. That's very true LOL. That's where boxing for me gets boring. It really all comes down to what you're looking for.

It's very popular today to compare everything to UFC/MMA, understandably so, but the traditional arts have their own unique value and other good attributes to offer. Some will even say they are still very beneficial if used/trained for that environment.

 

[DanT]

Being new to martial arts, I find forms fun and a great exercise in using your body in a new way. Someone on here on an older thread I was reading said their sifu said to him, if you want to be a fighter I'll show you 4 punches and 3 kicks and you can practice that to perfection....something along those lines. That's very true LOL. That's where boxing for me gets boring. It really all comes down to what you're looking for.

It's very popular today to compare everything to UFC/MMA, understandably so, but the traditional arts have their own unique value and other good attributes to offer. Some will even say they are still very beneficial if used/trained for that environment.

That was my Sifu, if you think about it it's true.

Straights, Hooks, Uppercuts, Overhands.

Round Kick, Front Kick, Side Kick.

Maybe a couple of blocks too.

If you're amazing at these and are an aggressive fighter you could kick the **** out of 99% of people really. Throw in some ground fighting and it becomes 99.9%. But do we really want to reduce martial arts to just fighting? Some do and that's fine. For me it's more than that.

 

[Anarax]

Probably not new to the experienced guys on here but to me it was. He makes a lot of sense.

Useless? No. However; moving without knowing what you are doing will prevent you from gaining the full benefits of forms. "Practicing" forms without commitment, power, speed, etc, will also hinder you. Many schools today just teach sequences of movements without teaching the applications, I think that's the big problems with forms today.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I think that's the big problems with forms today.

You can spend your training time in the following areas:

1. partner training.
2. sparring/wrestling.
3. solo form.
4. weight and heavy bag training.
5. ...

Which one will give you the best reward if you only have limited amount of training time?

IMO, 1 > 2 > 3 > 4