About Shoto Tanemura!

[JadecloudAlchemist]

Hello Mr. Jade Cloud aka: (David Adnresan) at least I think this is your name, I think alot of the people already answered most of the questions quite well.

Noone answered any questions really well IMO. David Andreasen is my name I have no reason to hide. Who told you Hodges? Giamboi? Diaz? He could not have been Ohno he is no longer in the organization. Was it Kohler tracing ISP's again?

As I understand it, you trained with Mr. Hodges and when did you travel to Japan to train at the honbu, and how much could you have learned at a low level.
Inrelation to some of your query's;

Troy I trained in Soka Dojo under Ohno Shihan in 2002 I was in Tanemura's home dojo I met John,James Wright and other Shihan.
I never claimed to have high rank in the Genbukan or any rank in that matter. So how much could I have learned since starting in the Genbukan in 2002 and leaving it in 2005. Enough to leave it.

1. About the dead ninjutsu school, this was a private conversation between Kyoshi Coleman and Sensei and Kyoshi Coleman answered questions to this on e-budo, so you can search there. If you had problem with it. It was not in the Tatara magazine but in a bufu.

Hey the guy resurrected a dead Ninja school and made himself the head of it. No matter how you try to reason it or justify it it still stands GUY RESURRECTED A DEAD NINJA SCHOOL FROM A VOICE HE HEARD ON AN AIRPLANE.

2. The selling of Hats etc; this is Sensei's perogative, it is his business to run as he sees fit, if you don't like it, don't buy any. Most the items were put there on the request from students to have them available. The towels were given as a gift and the hats sold at the first Japan tai kai. Some of the members requested that they be available for their students so Sensei made them available.

Thats fine he is a business man but IMO and again this is MO I find mixing Budo with Disney selling is a commerical money scheme.

3. Inrelation to Bagua; I don't practise this part of our organization however, Denjin means he received everything from Sato Kinbei Sensei, this has been discussed before and Sensei Sato Kinbei's training history with Li Zi Ming is well documented.

No Mr. Kohler tried to present the Kanji here on this site he does not add up to what he is claiming. You can search the thread. I had my wife who is Japanese check the Kanji and again it is not read that way. Mr. Kohler then tried to change the story as well it is a Chinese way but again in Chinese it does not really mean it and the Japanese do not read it as that.

4. Some one with no Rank being allowed to teach. In our organization, as with many, especially chinese systems. A person who is training can start a group and be a group leader, they cannot rank anyone. The students then must attend a Tai Kai or with a licenced instructor to be ranked. Don't see a problem with this but again, you are not part of our org so why is it your problem.

A training group is different then charging students $100 a month in which they are thinking they are learning from a legit teacher. It is a misrepresentation.

5. Mr. Febrez; I can not comment on him. I would have to look into it. However, again I say, you are not part of our org so why do you care.

I am glady to present this on this site since it is an open discussion on Mr. Tanemura Ronin was asking about Tanemura's teachers I presented things for him to look at.

My message was originally for RoninX, not you. You obviously have a hidden agenda and are looking for an arguement. I think these sites have had enough of that. By the way, my name is Troy, you do not have to call me Mr. Troy.

Just sharing my experience when I was a Genbukan member and asking questions that were never answered and still not answered.

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

More info about Tanemura from this thread:

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=49506

From Saru post:

After 10 mins of google the Genbukan sources would see to indicate the following to the ill informed.

Not to start a flame war just presenting the info as it is on the websites...



http://www.genbukan.org/cgi-bin/site.pl?tanemura1

Even though Sato sensei taught martial arts to many people, very few (including Tanemura sensei, at first) knew of Dr. Sato's training with Takamatsu sensei. It wasn't until more than a decade later, that Tanemura sensei (after ending his relationship with another teacher and starting the Genbukan) rediscovered Sato sensei.

http://www.genbukan.org/cgi-bin/site.pl?tanemura2

Trees and stones were used to develop punching and kicking power, and served to strengthen the hands and feet. He'd punch and strike a tree until his knuckles bleed and his toes were numb. But, Takamatsu Sensei taught him a much better way to develop an effective defense.

http://www.seikadojo.co.uk/sensei_history.htm

Once one of his teachers taught him a much better way to develop a strong strike, his teacher told him that a true martial artist passes by in a crowd unseen.

http://www.divinehumanity.com/custom/spiritma.html

Grandmaster Takamatsu Toshitsugu Sensei
One of Tanemura Sensei's teachers

http://www.ninpo.co.uk/

Kikaku was the first martial art name of Grandmaster Takamatsu Sensei (Grandmaster Tanemuras teacher), who was the last living combatitive ninja, it is with great pride that we carry this great tradition.

http://www.genbukan.ca/articles/tanemura_talks.html

Another is that I still needed to learn from somebody, still needed a teacher and Takamatsu Sensei has already passed away.

http://fugadojo.orgfree.com/pg005.html

It wasn't until more than a decade later, that Tanemura sensei (after ending his relationship with another teacher and starting the Genbukan) rediscovered Sato sensei.


http://users.skynet.be/chiryaku/eng...er_tanemura.htm

Some of Grandmaster Tanemura Tsunehisa Shoto Sensei's teachers :

• Takamatsu Toshitsugu Sensei
• Sato Kinbei Sensei
• Kimura Masaji Sensei
• Fukumoto Yoshio Sensei
• Kobayashi Masao Sensei
• Hatsumi Yoshiaki Sensei
• Seishiro Saito Sensei
• Nagao Zenyu Sensei
• Suzuki Sensei


Grandmaster Tanemura Tsunehisa Shoto Sensei has done many demonstrations worldwide and taught Ninpo and Ju-Jutsu to FBI agents, policemen, SWAT teams, SAS and other elite-team instructors. He was the first Grandmaster of Ninpo ever who left Japan in 1976 to teach in a Western country (USA - Atlanta). He was also the teacher of the first foreigners (Doron Navon, Stephen Hayes, ...) who came to Japan to learn Ninpo in the seventies.

http://users.skynet.be/chiryaku/eng...r_takamatsu.htm

He was well known in Japan as a Grandmaster of Ju-Jutsu and Bojutsu but many people were surprised by his death to hear that he was a true Ninja Grandmaster (of 9 schools).



He taught (Takamatsu Sensei)and formed many next generation Grandmasters under which :

• Kimura Masaharu Sensei

• Akimoto Fumio Sensei

• Sato Kinbei Sensei

• Ueno Takashi Sensei

• Tanemura Tsunehisa Shoto Sensei

• Fukumoto Yoshio Sensei

• Hatsumi Yoshiaki Sensei


http://www.myojo-dojo.com/initial_page.htm

(under profiles Tanemura Shoto)

It was a very hard time for the young Grandmaster who received his first Menkyo Kaiden in Shinden Fudo Ryu and Kukishin Ryu at the age of 20 ! At the age of 15 he started training with Grandmaster Toshitsugu Takamatsu Sensei. He majored in law at Hosei University and at the age of 22 he became a police officer, later an instructor, at Tokyo's Metropolitan Police Academy.



I could go on googling but to the uninformed its seems Hatsumi Sensei was never his teacher and certainly indicates Takamatsu Sensei role was more invloved than a meeting of one afternoon.

All this info comes from Genbukan websites.

 

[FudoshinDojo]

Why can i find Hatsumi in his masters list?
My problem is: If i was a newbie, i´d get the impression that Tanemura NEVER WAS ONE of Hatsumi´s students.>>

Hi there, just FYI, if you were a newbie, you should be concerned with ukemi, sabaki, kamae, and not all the rest, ha ha. that being said there is a public statement that Tanemura Sensei has made in regards to Hatsumi Sensei, located here, for 5-08-07. It pretty much sums everything up:

http://www.genbukan.org/cgi-bin/site.pl?331&ceService_serviceID=1&ceTopic_topicID=1



have one more question: What´s the real difference between Gyokko Ryu Tanemura-Ha, Shinden Fudo Ryu Tanemura-Ha, Koto Ryu Tanemura-Ha(etc) and the original schools? Is this just a way he get to can proclaime himself as a grandmaster of these arts, so he can be at the same level as people like Hatsumi, or this new versions has really something relevant to the art that can´t be found on Hatsumi´s schools? I´m sorry for saying this, but i was allways under the impression that he is trying to replace Hatsumi, and become himself viewed as "The Grandmaster of Ninpo".>>

Well you know friend, everyone has a bias for the group they train with and the same can be said back the other way on many various things. But is it really relevant to our training/ Probably not, just go for the one you enjoy and don't worry about the other.

As far as the ryu-ha you mentioned, many of those Tanemura Sensei was made menkyo kaiden, generally any menkyo kaiden, can ad "ha" to a ryu and make it their particular style and has been in other schoos before, Tanemura Sensei is definately not the first to do that in Japanese budo before. There are minute differences I would say, but then again any teacher from one to the other will have some differences on how something is interpreted.

As far as I am aware, Hatsumi Sensei has never said he the grandmaster of "Ninpo".

They are both grandmasters of various traditions left by Takamatsu Sensei, they both deserve our respect and SILENCE on some matters.

sincerely,
Brian Hodges
Renshi
GWNBF/KJJR
Fudoshin Dojo-Cho

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

The thread about Denjin title that Tanemura uses:

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=73063&highlight=denjin&page=2

George started with this:

says 5th "denjin" (伝&#20154 which translates roughly as "lineage holder

From me:

However I can not find the term Denjin in any Kanji dictionary. Den meaning passing on and Jin meaning person. Lineage is kakei. The term Denjin means more like passenger or something

George then says:

The reason you can't find the word "denshin" in a Japanese dictionary is because it is not a Japanese word per se

and goes on:

The Chinese pronounces it as 'chuanren' and they use alternate characters (傳人 or 传&#20154 and can be found in a Chinese dictionary

As I have said

傳人 or 传人 Pronounced as Fu jin if the Kanji is typed in a Japanese translator.

But this Kanji is not used as Denjin or for the meaning of Denjin.

Quote:

and again me saying:

传话人 Here is the Hanzi for Chuan hua ren but this translates as messenger same as Denjin kinda of translates and not as Grandmaster or linerage holder

Now everything I have presented I have backed up with references.

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

Brian Hodges nice to see you again. I find it interesting to post again after not posting for almost 2 years.

Hope everything is good with you.

 

[FudoshinDojo]

Brian Hodges nice to see you again. I find it interesting to post again after not posting for almost 2 years.

Hope everything is good with you. Today 03:58 PM>>

Doing well, thanks, check your e-mail if possible. Yeah I usually make it a practice not to, but.......

 

[RoninX]

Hi there, just FYI, if you were a newbie, you should be concerned with ukemi, sabaki, kamae, and not all the rest, ha ha. that being said there is a public statement that Tanemura Sensei has made in regards to Hatsumi Sensei, located here, for 5-08-07. It pretty much sums everything up:

http://www.genbukan.org/cgi-bin/site...opic_topicID=1

If i WERE a newbie, i should be concerned in knowing the people and the ORg. Or, pheraps, i shouldn´t pay attention on who am i gonna train under? Hm...doesn´t make much sense to me.

As far as the ryu-ha you mentioned, many of those Tanemura Sensei was made menkyo kaiden, generally any menkyo kaiden, can ad "ha" to a ryu and make it their particular style and has been in other schoos before,

Yes, they can. But i´m just wondering about the reasons. He could very well just proclaim to be MENKYO KAIDEN. But it seems that he wants to be the SOKE; like Hatsumi is. He isn´t happy with a "sconde place"; He HAS to be the Soke of those god damn traditions! He doesn´t want to be seen as the former student of the TRUE SOKE; He WANTS to be the SOKE! Being Menkyo Kaiden? That´s just not good enough for him! HE WANTS THE SOKESHIP!

I wonder why Manaka didn´t the same thing. Maybe is happy with being a former student student of Hatsumi, who is "just" a Menkyo Kaiden. It seems that he doesn´t need to invent Sokeships, in order to be at the same "level" of Hatsumi.
http://www.genbukan.org/cgi-bin/site.pl?331&ceService_serviceID=1&ceTopic_topicID=1

 

[Bruno@MT]

I just spent a full hour and a half on kaiten practise. I know I am going to hurt tomorrow. It was really intense. What does that have to do with this discussion? Nothing of course.

I could have spent time here arguing about who said / did what to someone I don't know in a language I don't know in a culture I don't know in a context I don't know, but I figured that actual hard work would be more productive.

I've done my research and I read about all the things mentioned so far. Discussions like this won't change anything, and only waste time. I am convinced that Tanemura sensei received menkyo kaiden in his arts, and that is all that matters to me.

If you believe that Tanemura sensei received menkyo kaiden, then train.
If you don't believe it, then don't train.
All the rest is politics.

 

[Troy Wideman]

Hello Jade Cloud or David,

I am just trying to remember who you are. Did you train with Ohno-san and if I remember you got up to the rank of 8th kyu. I believed you also met Renshi Hodges as well. I am a little surprised because I spoke with Brian and Shihan Wright and they said you seemed like a nice guy.
Just to make sure I have the right guy, you are dark skinned and about 120lbs, skinny, 5 '6", I don't say that to be rude, just trying to figure out if I got the right guy.
I find it a little disappointing that you would be so disrespectful to your previous teacher Ohno-san and Mr. Hodges who took care of you one day. I am not sure what your sour grapes are inregards to Filiax but I know for a fact Mr. Hodges treated you with respect. I think you should give him some in return.
I wish you luck in your training or what ever art you are studying at the moment.

Kind Regards,

Troy Wideman

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

Just to make sure I have the right guy, you are dark skinned and about 120lbs, skinny, 5 '6",

Nope. 5'7 170 white blue eyes blond hair.

I find it a little disappointing that you would be so disrespectful to your previous teacher Ohno-san and Mr. Hodges who took care of you one day. I am not sure what your sour grapes are inregards to Filiax but I know for a fact Mr. Hodges treated you with respect. I think you should give him some in return.

Troy where have I have been disrespective to Ohno and Brian?

I said to Brian hope everything is good with you.

I do find it interesting and odd that Brian posted now after 2yrs but hey thats just me.

Sour Grapes not really. Just sharing information.

Bruno if you are happy with your art then more power to you I felt the same way when I was in the Genbukan but as you can see to many questions that do not really get answered and to many oddities has me on another journey. I am only sharing information I have found and my experience it is up to the individual to make up their mind what they want to do.

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

Ronin to address your post he did use the title Menkyo kaiden or master been many years I believe in the older Ninpo Taijutsu manual he has since then changed it to Tanemura-ha.

Here is the claim of Master:

Shinden Fudo Ryu Taijutsu 27th Master
Kukishinden Happo Bikenjutsu 22nd Master
Togakure Ryu Ninpo 35th Master
Koto Ryu Ninpo Koppojutsu 20th Master
Kijin Chosui Ryu Dakentaijutsu 41st Master
Itten Ryushin Chukai Ryu Jujutsu 3rd Master
Araki Shin Ryu 18th Master
Yagyu Shingan Ryu Kaccyu Yawara Master
BACK

And now:

Shinden Fudo Ryu Daken-Taijutsu Tanemura-Ha - Soke Shinden Fudo Ryu Taijutsu Tanemura-Ha - Soke Kukishinden Happo Biken-Jutsu Tanemura-Ha - Soke Togakure Ryu Ninpo Tanemura-Ha - Soke Gyokko Ryu Kosshi-Jutsu Tanemura-Ha - Soke Koto Ryu Koppo-Jutsu Tanemura-Ha - Soke

http://www.kijindojo.co.uk/kijindojo/Grandmaster.aspx

A list of his ranks.

 

[FudoshinDojo]

Jade posted:


<<I do find it interesting and odd that Brian posted now after 2yrs but hey thats just me.>>

Yes, as I said earlier, I don't post, but I do lurk quite a bit LOL!! This just happened to pertain the the Genbukan is the only reason I posted.


RoninX posted

<<If i WERE a newbie, i should be concerned in knowing the people and the ORg. Or, pheraps, i shouldn´t pay attention on who am i gonna train under? Hm...doesn´t make much sense to me.>>

Well, I still think people should practice more in the dojo than on the internet thats all I'me saying. Besides the link I gave you shows the entire history of his relationship with Mr. Hatsumi. Is there any official statement in the Bujinkan for "newbies" that can tell them the relation of the Genbukan to the bujinkan or who Tanemura sensei is?


Ronin posted

<< wondering about the reasons. He could very well just proclaim to be MENKYO KAIDEN. But it seems that he wants to be the SOKE; like Hatsumi is. He isn´t happy with a "sconde place"; He HAS to be the Soke of those god damn traditions! He doesn´t want to be seen as the former student of the TRUE SOKE; He WANTS to be the SOKE! Being Menkyo Kaiden? That´s just not good enough for him! HE WANTS THE SOKESHIP! >>

Its not necessary for you to curse to get your point across, i am really trying to discuss this on a civil level. Much of what you said is just what you think and not is fact, thats your perogative but it doesn't make it true. Menkyo Kaiden is not "second place"

People living in glass houses should not throw stones

Ronin posted


wonder why Manaka didn´t the same thing. Maybe is happy with being a former student student of Hatsumi, who is "just" a Menkyo Kaiden. It seems that he doesn´t need to invent Sokeships, in order to be at the same "level" of Hatsumi.>>

Its not really nice to pull others into this conversation such as Manaka Unsui and the Jinenkan to use an example to get your point across. Manaka unsui is a gentleman and the org top notch, but with all due respect, he and Tanemura Sensei are two completely different people, with two different ways of doing things that both left the bujinkan on different terms. Hatsumi Sensei was Manaka Sensei's only teacher.

Tanemura Sensei has trained with Kimura and Sato Sensei as well as others and received Sokeships, etc, this is common knowledge as you already know. Also there is no big secret that Tanemura Sensei and Hatsumi Sensei parted without a handshake for sure and the circumstances were not exactly positive from both viewpoints.

In reality none of the Kanchos of the orgs are sitting around talking about this sort of stuff, its just people on keyboards, people become ill mannered when they touch keys sometimes, not sure why that is.

All of the X-Kan community has alot more similarities than differences and we should recognize that instead of slagging on each other.

sincerely,
Brian Hodges
Renshi
GWNBF/KJJR
Fudoshin Dojo-Cho

 

[Yugen]

This is my experience:

I think it is important to point out that for us in the Genbukan, much of this is about relationships. And this all starts with trust. Once trust is established, a world opens up which allows us to learn this art. Then much will be understood. Because everything has a reason and a time.

Look at the Genbukan rules and check the way our line of communication is structured. Even if you spend time with the Grandmaster, and share candid moments with high level people, it doesn't mean that all will be revealed to you. Again, everything has a reason and a time.

RoninX, it is not fair of you to make the accusations you make in your most recent post. It is the same with people making comparisons of Genbukan with the other organizations assuming that they are somewhat the same, and they're not. To learn about the Genbukan requires a different attitude. Nothing is really being covered up, but what info goes out depends a little on the attitude of the person and his/her reasons for asking the questions.

As for merch. To me, the symbols of our organization have a very special meaning. And like others have said, they are worn because we appreciate their significance. So to compare it with "disney" is silly.

One thing that has so far been left out of the discussion, something which I have always felt when it comes to Tanemura Soke, is that he has a very clear vision for what he does. Thus the Genbukan is structured the way it is. There might not be 10.000 sites out there, or videos all over the web, but our dojos and Soke's high level instructors are available and quite open to everyone. Their contact details are on the honbu site!

One thing that is nice about the Genbukan is that we are lead to the realization in ourselves of the importance of kihon, physically and ethically. In the end, the teaching is about what *you do* to become a better person, and fellow human being. It is not the transmission of arcane knowledge, but martial virtues that counts here. It's about you, your life, and your future.

- Bard

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

The questions are not being really answered they are being skipped around with Ad Hominem on we should not ask these type of questions and focus on training and Ad Nauseum on how Tanemura has this great vision it sounds rather sheepish and cultish IMO.

Why resurrect a dead ninja ryuha and make yourself the head master of it? Why is Mr.Tanemura allowed to do this and not say Ashida Kim?
Noone but me finds it odd a man hearing voices to resurrect a dead ninja school?

The point of mentioning the clothes and towels seems like Disney to me.
It seems like a ploy to make extra cash. It is what it is. IMO and this is MO I think its odd.

As Ronin said it is a little strange to go from master one year to renaming yourself Soke later. So yes people will question it because it seems odd.

I still can't get a straight answer on the Denjin title.

Looking at what I posted about Takamatsu and Takamatsu is in the Master's list why isn't Hatsumi listed it is a good question.

So yes there are many questions that are in a way being dipped around with answers that are not insightful or Ad Hominem.
The comment concerning Mr. Coleman and Tanemura about the dead Ninja school on E-Budo I am the one Pacman2323 who brought up that topic and Mr.Coleman still could not respond in a manner convincing that it is ok to create it.

Also noone ever answered the question how can a modern art woven together be considered Koryu like Koryu Karate?

It is quite alot of questions that strike me odd that noone has really answered or can not answer.

 

[Troy Wideman]

Hello David,
Sorry, I guess I got you mixed up with someone else. I have spoke with both Shihan Wright and Mr. Hodges. Mr. Hodges spoke kindly about you when I inquired. I do not need to trace your IP address. I was just curious as to who I was dealing with. If you trained in our org I wanted to know what experience level I was dealing with. I found out your were around 8th kyu so that gives me an idea.

As I said, you are not part of the org, so it is really none of your business. When you were part of the org, why did you not ask Tanemura Sensei himself, since you were in Japan.
As in all your points you have stated, IMO, you are correct it is your opinion. You were only 8th kyu in the org and would not be privy to alot of information.
Inrelation to Mr. Feliax, you obviously have a beef with him and chose not to train with him, that is great. It is irrelevant what he is charging, he charges what he thinks he needs to survive as a business. I am not defending him because I have never met him, just stating fact. If you have never run a club you have no idea how expensive it is to run. Same as if Tanemura sensei decides to charge for towels, he is running a business as well as teaching the martial arts. If you do not like the towels, don't buy them. If you decide to run some type of business one day you will understand this, if you run one already, I have no idea why it is even brought up.
I answered what Denjin meant, if you were not happy with it, Oh well. What else can I say. Tanemura Sensei, trained with Sato Kinbei Sensei and received the BaQua and other chinese arts, no more debate is needed. Again, you are not part of our org, so what do you care. Go train in another organization.
Inrelation to the dead ninja ryu, it did not get formed so we are again talking about a mute point. Nothing came of it.
Inrelation to Tanemura Sensei saying Tanemura Ha after the ryu ha name, he is in his rights to do this as a Menkyo Kaiden holder. Menkyo Kaiden means he has mastered the system, when you add your name you are making it your line. This is done in all kinds of other koryu, so why is it a problem. For example Ohno ha itto ryu kenjutsu. We as genbukan members are honoured and have alot of pride to train in our teachers line.
Inrelation to Tanemura Sensei not listing Hatsumi's name, this again is Tanemura sensei's priviledge, if he wants to he can, if not, why is it any of your business. It is well documented that Tanemura Sensei trained with Hatsumi and he never hides this fact to his students. You should know this being a previous member of the Genbukan as you say.
Inrelation to the Koryu Karate, it is made up of Tenshin Ryu Kempo and Kijin Chosui ryu Daken Tai jutsu and with elements of chinese martial arts. Sensei, has never tried to hide what he made it up from. He choose to call it Koryu Karate again that is his priviledge and perogative. If you don't like it, don't train in it.

Last but not least, why do you ask these questions on an open forum other than to cause problems and arguements. If you had a concern you could have asked Sensei himself when you were in Japan.

I wish you luck in what ever you do. If you are ever in Canada, feel free to look me up. As Mr. Hodges did I would take you out for a bite to eat and we could discuss matters. All the best.

Kind Regards,

Troy Wideman

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

As I said, you are not part of the org, so it is really none of your business.

An open forum it is posted on the internet it becomes public knowledge thus making it everyones business as soon as it published either in book or on a website.

why did you not ask Tanemura Sensei himself, since you were in Japan

That was way back in 2002 I did not know anything really about the organization until I digged into it. Hence why I left.

You were only 8th kyu in the org and would not be privy to alot of information.

All the info is posted on the web and most of it is either 1.In material published by Tanemura,approved by Tanemura or on the Genbukan site.

Mr. Feliax, you obviously have a beef with him and chose not to train with him

Nope. I stated orginally a teacher in the organization when asked who I said the name. I have no beef with anyone.

If you have never run a club you have no idea how expensive it is to run.

The point was not how expensive a club is the point was charging students who think they are getting legit teachings from a ranked teacher. The point was charging someone $100 for lessons when you yourself are not ranked seems fishy.

I answered what Denjin meant,

And you either 1.can not read Kanji or 2. really do not know what it means. Check the Kanji or better yet I already explained what Denjin I asked George to explain it after I and my wife a native Japanese said it means otherwise you can also use a Kanji dictionary to see it does not really mean what you say.

so what do you care.

Why do you care that I care?

Inrelation to the dead ninja ryu, it did not get formed so we are again talking about a mute point. Nothing came of it.

Um the point is the guy heard a voice to recreate a dead Ninja school and made it public access I think those in the Japanese arts or those thinking of joining the Genbukan might want to be aware of that.

Inrelation to Tanemura Sensei saying Tanemura Ha after the ryu ha name, he is in his rights to do this as a Menkyo Kaiden holder. Menkyo Kaiden means he has mastered the system, when you add your name you are making it your line.

Yes I know what Menkyo Kaiden means. However when using the term master first and then changing it to Soke it might be odd to people who do not know the difference and people who may want to join the Genbukan should have the right to know.

Inrelation to Tanemura Sensei not listing Hatsumi's name, this again is Tanemura sensei's priviledge,

Fair enough but look at all the links posted from Saru who did a 10 min goggle search you can see Hatsumi does not really appear and it kinda of plays the I learned from Takamatsu. Also When Allie questioned who is your teacher why would the answer be Takamatsu and not Hatsumi or any other teacher? Just strange.

Inrelation to the Koryu Karate, it is made up of Tenshin Ryu Kempo and Kijin Chosui ryu Daken Tai jutsu and with elements of chinese martial arts. Sensei, has never tried to hide what he made it up from. He choose to call it Koryu Karate again that is his priviledge and

Yea but its like calling Aikido Koryu Aikido because it comes from Daito ryu
How are you going to call a Gendai created mixed art Koryu?

Last but not least, why do you ask these questions on an open forum other than to cause problems and arguements. If you had a concern you could have asked Sensei himself when you were in Japan.

Public has a right to know Public asked questions concerning Tanemura.
Don't get angry with me because I asked questions that you either 1.refuse to admit 2. rather not ask yourself.

What do you care what I say unless there is some truth to what I say?
I have backed up my claims with post from websites,posted references,emails and the like If I am wrong I welcome you to show me.

 

[FudoshinDojo]

Hmm, on a positive note. In this link it shows a pic of Sato Sensei and Tanemura Sensei, at the bottom of the page it shows Tanemura Sensei's certificate from Sato Sensei/ and Li Zu Ming, maybe someone can translate.


http://www.genbukanbudo.co.za/Chinese%20Kenpo.html


sincerely,
Brian Hodges
Renshi
GWNBF/KJJR
Fudoshin Dojo-Cho

 

[Chris Parker]

Hi,

Just to chime in here, I am not a member of the Genbukan, Bujinkan, or Jinenkan, so I have no real investment in one organisation or another... but a couple of things have stood out to me.

To preface, I have a great deal of respect for Tanemura Sensei, as well as the senior members/instructors of the Genbukan (and other organisations), so hopefully that will be taken into account here.

With Tanemura Sensei "hearing a voice on a plane and resurrecting a dead ninjutsu school", we are talking about the Hakuun Ryu here. The Hakuun Ryu is one of the basis arts for Togakure Ryu (and therefore, by extension, Kumogakure Ryu), Gyokko Ryu (and by extension, Gikan Ryu and Gyokushin Ryu), and heavily influenced Koto Ryu (through Gyokko Ryu). I feel that Tanemura Sensei felt that as these various arts were founded in, or influenced by Hakuun Ryu, then the material was there to resurrect the art, at least in principle. This is not too dissimilar to Takamatsu Sensei taking the disparate branches of Kukishin Ryu as they found their way to him, and aiding in the re-creation of Tenshin Hyoho Kukishinden Ryu.

As for why he can do it, and not Ashida Kim, well, Kim doesn't have any link to authentic Ninjutsu in any guise (as far as I know), whereas Tanemura Sensei was looking to the arts he had already mastered. So there is a large difference in the credibility of the two mentioned individuals. This does not mean, however, that I feel it was a credible method of acting, but I will say that the creation of a Martial Art after a message from Heaven is far from a rarity in the history of Japanese traditions.

For a while, Hakuun Ryu was listed as one of the arts that went into the make up of the Genbukan Ninpo Bugei syllabus, but I note that it has (and Wideman Sensei said) been removed, and is no longer an issue (if it was). However, I would ask if it has simply been renamed as Iga Ryu, which does appear?

I feel that the debate between Jadecloud and Kohler Sensei covered the Bagua aspect as thoroughly as it is going to be, so I have nothing to add to that.

The only other part of this particular debate I would enter into is the question of who is claimed as Tanemura Sensei's teacher. Indeed, I have read and heard Tanemura Sensei say a number of times that his teacher in Ninpo was Takamatsu Sensei, with Hatsumi Sensei not being mentioned at all. In each and every occassion, the term "another teacher" or similar was used. Then, I think about a year or so ago, maybe a bit longer, a message was posted on the Genbukan website giving a bit of the story, and claiming Hatsumi Sensei as Tanemura's teacher.

This doesn't change the fact that all other sources claim that Tanemura Sensei only actually met Takamatsu Sensei on one single occassion, so he couldn't have learnt all his Ninpo from Takamatsu. I would venture the idea that Tanemura is being more figurative than literal here, saying that all his Ninpo knowledge comes from Takamatsu Sensei, whether via Hatsumi Sensei, Sato Sensei, Kimura Sensei etc, and could possibly have originated from a less-than-perfect command of English many years ago.

I would also suggest that those who still feel the lists provided earlier (in the "10 minute google search") doesn't include Hatsumi Sensei may want to look a little closer. At least two of those lists include the name Hatsumi Yoshiaki Sensei. As I'm sure Jadecloud can attest, the first character in the name Yoshiaki (yoshi) can also be read as Masa, giving the name the pronouncement of Masaaki. The story that I heard was that Takamatsu Sensei pulled the young Hatsumi Yoshiaki aside at one point, and said to him that throughout Japanese history, people with the syllable "Yoshi" in their given name have met with bad ends, specifically people such as Minamoto Yoshimitsu, so he should use the alternate pronunciation from then on. So basically, Hatsumi Yoshiaki is Hatsumi Masaaki. He is there.

Hope I haven't upset anyone, just my take on things.

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

With Tanemura Sensei "hearing a voice on a plane and resurrecting a dead ninjutsu school", we are talking about the Hakuun Ryu here

Yes that is the school.

then the material was there to resurrect the art, at least in principle.

Its a stretch but I suppose you can resurrect a dead art based on its modern techniques. But its kinda of like taking Aikido techniques and principles and then creating Daito ryu.

It is possible he meant Takamatsu figurativlely but the mannerism in the way he talks about Takamatsu seems to suggest otherwise. The Mannerism of placing Takamatsu on the Masters area and not Hatsumi,The visits to Takamatsu wife,The vists to the grave suggest more of wanting to belong or get as close to Takamatsu.

The Genbukan site http://www.genbukanbudo.co.za/Chinese%20Kenpo.html

Raises alot of questions.

Li Zu Ming Sensei and Wang Shu Jin Sensei were both brought over to teach in the "land of the rising sun

Wang Shu Jin was living in Japan in 1959. He was working and teaching students not just Sato Kinbei but many others.
Same as Li Zi Ming taught many students there is a video of Li Zi Ming teaching students with Sato Kinbei watching.

Here are pictures of another of Li Zi Ming diciples
http://www.geocities.com/ong_mingthong/photo2.html

Martial arts, Hsing I Chuan, Ba Ji Chuan, Ba Gua Zhang, Chen Pan-Ling Tai Chi Chuan, White Crane, and Fu Jian Province Shaolin Golden Hawk, combining them with Bagua into the Chugoku kenpo system he teaches

Really because when I asked Mr.Coleman about if Mr.Tanemura learned these arts he said"everything is listed on the Genbukan.org site"This was on the Genbukan.org forum. When I also asked what style of Bagua did Mr.Tanemura learned noone really knew.
Li Zi Ming which is his name and also his style was very big on Liang style.
He is known within the Liang style for the 2 man set which the Genbukan does. Who was Tanemura's Taiji teacher? I am assuming the Xingyi comes from Wang's linerage. There is no mention on it on the Genbukan.org site

Tanemura Sensei's teaching include: Hakkesho (Ba Gua), Kiko (Imperial Qi Gong), Kinnajutsu (Chin-na

Grandmasters Li Zi Ming and Wang Shu-chin held the Martial Arts of Japan in very high regard and also studied Ju Jutsu and Aiki Jutsu in exchange for teaching Bagua to Grandmaster Sato Kinbei.

Kent Howard,Vincent Black were students of Wang shu Jin and Li Zi Ming there is no mention of either of these masters studing Jujutsu and Aikijutsu. Is it possible that Kinbei shared ideas of Jujutsu and Aikijutsu yes but it is doubtful that they taught Bagua and Xingyi for exchage for Jujutsu and Aikijutsu.

Mr.Coleman also said not to compare Jujutsu.com to Genbukan.org when asked about the arts Mr.Tanemura learned from Kinbei. "Everything Tanemura learned from Kinbei is listed on the Genbukan.org site" However if we look at Jujutsu.com we know Mr.Kinbei learned other arts are we to believe that Mr.Tanemura learned the arts of Xingyi,Taiji and other Chinese arts as said on the one Genbukan site Genbukanbudo. or are we to believe that everything is listed on the Genbukan.org site?

 

[Chris Parker]

Its a stretch but I suppose you can resurrect a dead art based on its modern techniques. But its kinda of like taking Aikido techniques and principles and then creating Daito ryu.

It is possible he meant Takamatsu figurativlely but the mannerism in the way he talks about Takamatsu seems to suggest otherwise. The Mannerism of placing Takamatsu on the Masters area and not Hatsumi,The visits to Takamatsu wife,The vists to the grave suggest more of wanting to belong or get as close to Takamatsu.

Hi, Jadecloud,

Yeah, I agree it's a stretch, but I also don't think it's unique within martial arts. This kind of reverse-engineering happens occassionally, with arts such as Enshin Ryu (Honmon Enshin Ryu and Koden Enshin Ryu), and Katayama Hoki Ryu.

I'm again not particularly shocked by Tanemura Sensei distancing himself from Hatsumi Sensei, and attempting to create a greater association with Takamatsu Sensei, as from all accounts it was quite a negative falling out between the two. The visiting of Takamatsu's wife, from the stories I have come across, involve him visiting to ask her permission to continue her husbands work, teaching the arts he taught. From most accounts, she replied "Do what you want", which was taken as a yes. This is not the only version I have heard, but it is the most common/persistant.

With the Chinese systems, I have reached the limits of my knowledge, I'll let others comment (to support or debate) on these grounds.