About Shoto Tanemura!

[RoninX]

Hello!

Anyone knows how documented is his training under the men he received his Menkyos? We have videos, documents and many photos about Hatsumi´s training under Takamatsu, so i´d like to know if there is anything about Tanemura´s training that the general public can check.

Thanks.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

While I do not know about checking there is absolutely no doubt that Soke Tanemura is absolutely excellent at what he does. (absolutely excellent)

I have no reason at all to question his training or experience!

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

There are people who have trained with both Mr.Tanemura and his teachers I believe Mr.Wright,Mr.Coleman and some others have met them.
There are photos of Mr.Tanemura with the other teachers.

You can check the magazine Amatsu Tatara which has articles and pictures with Tanemura,His Shihan and the students of Takamatsu.

 

[RoninX]

While I do not know about checking there is absolutely no doubt that Soke Tanemura is absolutely excellent at what he does. (absolutely excellent)

I have no reason at all to question his training or experience!

I agree with you.

You get me wrong; the objective was not question his claims; the objective was find out where i can read more about him and his teachers.

 

[RoninX]

I respect Shoto Tanemura, but i would respect him even more if it wasn´t fot his:

http://www.genbukan.org/cgi-bin/site.pl?masters

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

I am unclear what the problem is on the site you listed.

You can see under Kimura's bio He is in a picture with Tanemura going over a technique.

If you are are looking about strange things about Tanemura you can read about the Dead Ninjutsu school he revived from a voice he heard on an airplane. -Amatsu Tatara magazine

The Grandmaster title he uses for his Bagua.-Ninpo taijutsu vol 1. old edition.

The oddity of selling towels,and baseball hats. Genbukan.org under products.

The many claims of:

Q. Who was your teacher in Ninpo?

A. My teacher was Takamatsu Sensei.

- http://www.geocities.com/yosemite/rapids/1028/sensai1.txt

The allowing of Genbukan teachers with no rank run offical Genbukan dojos charge money to the students who think they are learning from a legit Genbukan teacher.

The claim he moves just like Takamatsu which Ben Cole pointed out on E-Budo that he does not when everyone saw Takamatsu on video.

Genbukan Yoga.

The whole debate about Koryu karate you can read the threads here posted in the karate section.

When you look at things it rises to many red flags IMO. But if you are happy with the training...

 

[Troy Wideman]

Hello Mr. RoninX,

How can I help you. My name is Troy Wideman and I am the Genbukan Shibu Cho for Canada. I am not sure what you do not respect about my teacher for by posting his web site. You will have to explain. However, Sensei's training is well documented and there is no need to start throwing daggers as some people like to do. Comments about some of the items mentioned can be searched on the internet and you can read all of the different peoples comments about Tanemura Sensei. The only problem is that most of these people have never trained in the organization.
If you have a question, I will try to answer it. If I can't I will tell you so.

Kind Regards,

Troy Wideman

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

Dear Mr. Troy I have trained in your organization both in Japan and in America and have met Mr.Tanemura myself.

All my comments are taken directly from the Genbukan site or approval from Mr.Tanemura.

Perhaps you can explain the Grandmaster title of Bagua because Mr.Kohler tried to and failed. Mr.Tanemura in I believe the old Ninpo taijutsu manual said he was a grandmaster in Bagua later was the term Denjin presented.
You can read the thread about it here on martialtalk in which the Kanji for Denjin is not correct termology.

Maybe you can explain the rest of my posts on Tanemura's oddity such as the voice he heard on an airplane to bring back a dead Ninja school.

Maybe you can explain Carlos Febres rank and he was listed as a Dojo member on the contact area.

Maybe you can explain how someone with no rank in one art can teach and charge money in the art and when asked his rank he replies "I am allowed to teach" it seems rather misrepresenting though the person is listed as a Dojo on the Genbukan site.

 

[EWBell]

I am unclear what the problem is on the site you listed.

You can see under Kimura's bio He is in a picture with Tanemura going over a technique.

If you are are looking about strange things about Tanemura you can read about the Dead Ninjutsu school he revived from a voice he heard on an airplane. -Amatsu Tatara magazine

The Grandmaster title he uses for his Bagua.-Ninpo taijutsu vol 1. old edition.

The oddity of selling towels,and baseball hats. Genbukan.org under products.

The many claims of:
- http://www.geocities.com/yosemite/rapids/1028/sensai1.txt

The allowing of Genbukan teachers with no rank run offical Genbukan dojos charge money to the students who think they are learning from a legit Genbukan teacher.

The claim he moves just like Takamatsu which Ben Cole pointed out on E-Budo that he does not when everyone saw Takamatsu on video.

Genbukan Yoga.

The whole debate about Koryu karate you can read the threads here posted in the karate section.

When you look at things it rises to many red flags IMO. But if you are happy with the training...

Sounds like someone has a bit of a problem with Tanemura Soke...

He hasn't revived any dead ninpo school, might have thought about it at THAT time, but you cannot find it listed as a ryu-ha on the Genbukan site.

What's odd about selling hats, towels, and t-shirts? I mean really...

What exactly is the problem with the geocities site? Is it because he says Takamatsu Sensei was his ninpo teacher?

Genbukan teachers with no rank running dojo? Who and where? All official dojo are listed on the Genbukan website.

When has Tanemura Soke said he moves just like Takamatsu Sensei? I don't think he moves just like Takamatsu Sensei based on the little bit of footage we have of Takamatsu Sensei.

The yoga is not from Tanemura Soke, but from Gary Giamboi, Kyoshi. It isn't like it is required study.

I don't see the problem with Koryu Karate other than people think karate the word karate can only be used by Okinawans. There were legitimate explainations of what the art is and what ryu-ha it comes from.

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

He hasn't revived any dead ninpo school, might have thought about it at THAT time, but you cannot find it listed as a ryu-ha on the Genbukan site.

Please read Amatsu Tatara magazine in which he speaks about taking over Sokeship of a dead Ninja school.

What's odd about selling hats, towels, and t-shirts?

I think its weird and someone who wants to make money what does towels and hats and shirts have to do with Budo? What are you disney world or a martial art?

What exactly is the problem with the geocities site? Is it because he says Takamatsu Sensei was his ninpo teacher?

Yes he tried to present it as Takamatsu was his teacher.

Who is your teacher? Takamatsu. The answer was not Hatsumi,It was not I met Takamatsu once,It was not Kinbei he said"Takamatsu was my teacher"

Genbukan teachers with no rank running dojo? Who and where? All official dojo are listed on the Genbukan website.

Mr. Diaz Miami I have a copy of the email sent to me by Mr.Hodges that was orginally from Mr.Tanemura explaining his rank. He is listed as an offical Dojo at the time he did not have offical rank.

When has Tanemura Soke said he moves just like Takamatsu Sensei? I don't think he moves just like Takamatsu Sensei based on the little bit of footage we have of Takamatsu Sensei.

I believe it was an article in Black belt magazine. You can read the thread on E-budo or ask I belive Ben Cole who brought it up.

The yoga is not from Tanemura Soke, but from Gary Giamboi, Kyoshi. It isn't like it is required study.

I know I have trained with Mr. Giamboi I just find it odd to call the Yoga Genbukan yoga and market it as such.

I don't see the problem with Koryu Karate other than people think karate the word karate can only be used by Okinawans. There were legitimate explainations of what the art is and what ryu-ha it comes from.

You can look at the threads here. It seems rather misleading to call the art Karate why not just call it Koryu Dakenjutsu why do you have to use the term Karate? Unless again it is marketing ploy.

Are you a student of Mr.Hodges? I trained with him once nice guy.

 

[ElfTengu]

Please read Amatsu Tatara magazine in which he speaks about taking over Sokeship of a dead Ninja school.

I think its weird and someone who wants to make money what does towels and hats and shirts have to do with Budo? What are you disney world or a martial art?

Yes he tried to present it as Takamatsu was his teacher.

Who is your teacher? Takamatsu. The answer was not Hatsumi,It was not I met Takamatsu once,It was not Kinbei he said"Takamatsu was my teacher"

Mr. Diaz Miami I have a copy of the email sent to me by Mr.Hodges that was orginally from Mr.Tanemura explaining his rank. He is listed as an offical Dojo at the time he did not have offical rank.

I believe it was an article in Black belt magazine. You can read the thread on E-budo or ask I belive Ben Cole who brought it up.


I know I have trained with Mr. Giamboi I just find it odd to call the Yoga Genbukan yoga and market it as such.

You can look at the threads here. It seems rather misleading to call the art Karate why not just call it Koryu Dakenjutsu why do you have to use the term Karate? Unless again it is marketing ploy.

Are you a student of Mr.Hodges? I trained with him once nice guy.

It's about time the Genbukan shared some of the flack! lol

I can't comment on any of the above except I was vaguely aware that Takamatsu Sensei sometimes used the term 'karate koppojutsu' and it is unlikely to be a translation error when it is a Japanese word simply being romanised.

At least the Genbukan have some control over merchandise, whereas everyone and their dog flogs tat with Bujin on it. I have seen shot glasses (budo reference?) and skimpy ladies underwear definitely not suitable for training in!

At least you can wipe genuine budo sweat from your brow with a budo towel and train in a budo tshirt, and a hat saying "I do Martial Arts" is a great way to get some practice when the local gorilla sees it and decides to play with you.

 

[WesternCiv]

Please read Amatsu Tatara magazine in which he speaks about taking over Sokeship of a dead Ninja school.

One thing I like about training in the Genbukan organization is the spiritual component. I haven't heard, seen or read what you are referring to and if it was said as you report, and is not taken out of context of the rest of the article - I'd have a hard time buying off on it. I'm a Catholic and I don't buy off on 100% of that doctrine either - but I still find practicing my religion to be a rewarding experience.

I think its weird and someone who wants to make money what does towels and hats and shirts have to do with Budo? What are you disney world or a martial art?

I'm proud to wear my KJJR t-shirts. They look good and I'm happy the Genbukan provides me the opportunity to purchase them.

Genbukan teachers with no rank running dojo? Who and where? All official dojo are listed on the Genbukan website.

Without knowing the particulars of your experience I would hope that your's was an isolated incident that has been corrected. I do not believe that the organization promotes this.

As far as the issues you express over vocabulary - I have no opinion either way. Unlike a lot of Ninpo enthusiasts the history and lineage is interesting ... but really has no bearing on if I enjoy and propser in my training.

I like my teacher, enjoy the fellowship, and appreciate learning the skills taught in the Genbukan. I wish my dojo offered Yoga - thats sounds interesting too.

Whatever organization you belong to I wish you well in your training.

 

[jks9199]

It's nice to see how rational and polite this discussion is running... but allow me to remind everyone that MartialTalk has a no fraudbusting policy. It's OK to discuss disputed issues... but watch that you don't slide out of friendly discussion, huh?

 

[EWBell]

Jadecloudalchemist,

Yes I am a student of Hodges Sensei, and you are correct in that he is a nice person.

I am aware of what Tanemura Soke said about reviving the dead ninjutsu school. I am also aware that he does not list it on his list of masterships. Not really much I can say about it one way or the other, just stating the obvious.

On the merchandise thing, all organizations do it in some form or another. Some may sell items like the Genbukan, others may offer videos to show you the feeling of a ryu-ha. I think Elftengu's examples are pretty funny.

Tanemura Soke has acknowledged Mr. Hatsumi as one of his teachers. I think Tanemura Soke's view is that since he was training with Mr. Hatsumi at the same time Mr. Hatsumi was under Takamatsu Sensei, then he is one of his teachers. There could have been other communication between Tanemura Soke and Takamatsu Sensei besides the one meeting. However, that is just speculation on my part and should be taken as such.

I'll echo WesternCiv's statements on the Mr. Diaz situation. I don't believe that type of thing is promoted in the Genbukan. The rules are pretty clear on how a dojo from another organization, or a study group, etc., can join.

When it comes to Koryu Karate, I still don't see the problem you seem to have. It states on the Genbukan website that it is not Okinawan Karate, and gives the reason. What was the Okinawan art called in the original Okinawan language? Karate is a Japanese word from what I understand, and if Takamatsu Sensei called it karate koppojutsu then I think the argument can be made it is ok to call it that.

Take care,
Eric

 

[newtothe dark]

I am also enjoying this talk.

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

haven't heard, seen or read what you are referring to and if it was said as you report, and is not taken out of context of the rest of the article

Do you have the Amatsu Tatara magazine?

It has been 7yrs since I have read the article. But it went something like Tanemura was on an airplane heading to Miwaukee he heard a voice telling him to be the founder/resurrect a dead Iga ninja school. He landed and was crying to Mr.Coleman.

I'm proud to wear my KJJR t-shirts. They look good and I'm happy the Genbukan provides me the opportunity to purchase them.

If you are happy good for you. IMO I find tshirts,hats,towels,and the like to be a marketing ploy like Disney world rather focus on Budo How many Koryu sensei's are running around selling this on their sites?

Without knowing the particulars of your experience I would hope that your's was an isolated incident that has been corrected.

Well there was Carlos Febres who was listed as a Dojo contact on the Genbukan site he was taken off. I don't know if it has been corrected and I really do not care I wish Mr. Diaz the best of luck he may have legit rank now under Mr.Coleman but at the time in 2003 he was accepting students charging $100 a month and when asked his rank in the Genbukan he said he was allowed to teach. It is a sly stretch of truth.

West I wish you the best in your training as well.

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

I am aware of what Tanemura Soke said about reviving the dead ninjutsu school. I am also aware that he does not list it on his list of masterships. Not really much I can say about it one way or the other, just stating the obvious

I don't know didn't he list one school in the old Ninpo taijust manual and cross it out?
I find it odd to resurrect a dead Ninja school. You know if an American did this he would be flamed to death *Ahem Ashida Kim so why the double standard?

On the merchandise thing, all organizations do it in some form or another. Some may sell items like the Genbukan, others may offer videos to show you the feeling of a ryu-ha. I think Elftengu's examples are pretty funny.

Yep and I find it odd as well selling merchadise. I think it crosses the line between Martial arts and marketing for profit. But that is just me.

Tanemura Soke has acknowledged Mr. Hatsumi as one of his teachers. I think Tanemura Soke's view is that since he was training with Mr. Hatsumi at the same time Mr. Hatsumi was under Takamatsu Sensei, then he is one of his teachers. There could have been other communication between Tanemura Soke and Takamatsu Sensei besides the one meeting. However, that is just speculation on my part and should be taken as such.

There were many instances and the mannerism Tanemura speaks that it appears that Takamatsu was his teacher. We all know Hatsumi was his teacher but again when Allie asked him who was your teacher and he said Takamatsu it is a misrepresentation.

I'll echo WesternCiv's statements on the Mr. Diaz situation. I don't believe that type of thing is promoted in the Genbukan. The rules are pretty clear on how a dojo from another organization, or a study group, etc., can join.

Ya honorable memeber but charging people $100 and was listed as a Dojo-cho.

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

When it comes to Koryu Karate, I still don't see the problem you seem to have. It states on the Genbukan website that it is not Okinawan Karate, and gives the reason. What was the Okinawan art called in the original Okinawan language? Karate is a Japanese word from what I understand, and if Takamatsu Sensei called it karate koppojutsu then I think the argument can be made it is ok to call it that.

It can not be called Koryu Karate because as Mr. Kohler said it was put together By Mr. Tanemura so technically it would be a Gendai art.

It is like calling Aikido Koryu Aikido because it comes from Daito ryu it makes no sense really. Karate is a group term usually associated with arts coming from China and especially coming from Okinawa. I don't know how much of the termology was used as Karate in Japan prior to Edo period because we are presented with other names like Dakenjutsu,Kenpo and so on. But really why use Karate? IMO it is a marketing ploy.

And Mods this is by no means fraud busting this is a discussion on Mr.Tanemura and asking questions concerning his art.

 

[Troy Wideman]

Hello Mr. Jade Cloud aka: (David Adnresan) at least I think this is your name, I think alot of the people already answered most of the questions quite well.
As I understand it, you trained with Mr. Hodges and when did you travel to Japan to train at the honbu, and how much could you have learned at a low level.
Inrelation to some of your query's;
1. About the dead ninjutsu school, this was a private conversation between Kyoshi Coleman and Sensei and Kyoshi Coleman answered questions to this on e-budo, so you can search there. If you had problem with it. It was not in the Tatara magazine but in a bufu.
Oh well, guess you don't have to worry, your not part of our organization.
2. The selling of Hats etc; this is Sensei's perogative, it is his business to run as he sees fit, if you don't like it, don't buy any. Most the items were put there on the request from students to have them available. The towels were given as a gift and the hats sold at the first Japan tai kai. Some of the members requested that they be available for their students so Sensei made them available.
3. Inrelation to Bagua; I don't practise this part of our organization however, Denjin means he received everything from Sato Kinbei Sensei, this has been discussed before and Sensei Sato Kinbei's training history with Li Zi Ming is well documented.
4. Some one with no Rank being allowed to teach. In our organization, as with many, especially chinese systems. A person who is training can start a group and be a group leader, they cannot rank anyone. The students then must attend a Tai Kai or with a licenced instructor to be ranked. Don't see a problem with this but again, you are not part of our org so why is it your problem.
5. Mr. Febrez; I can not comment on him. I would have to look into it. However, again I say, you are not part of our org so why do you care.

My message was originally for RoninX, not you. You obviously have a hidden agenda and are looking for an arguement. I think these sites have had enough of that. By the way, my name is Troy, you do not have to call me Mr. Troy.
I wish you luck in your Bagua training. I actually trained with Quing Fu Pan for about 5 years, quite a long time ago.


Kind Regards,

Troy Wideman

 

[RoninX]

Why can i find Hatsumi in his masters list?
My problem is: If i was a newbie, i´d get the impression that Tanemura NEVER WAS ONE of Hatsumi´s students.

I have one more question: What´s the real difference between Gyokko Ryu Tanemura-Ha, Shinden Fudo Ryu Tanemura-Ha, Koto Ryu Tanemura-Ha(etc) and the original schools? Is this just a way he get to can proclaime himself as a grandmaster of these arts, so he can be at the same level as people like Hatsumi, or this new versions has really something relevant to the art that can´t be found on Hatsumi´s schools? I´m sorry for saying this, but i was allways under the impression that he is trying to replace Hatsumi, and become himself viewed as "The Grandmaster of Ninpo".

This might sound a little disrespectful, but i´m just being honest.
Anyone shares this opinion with me?