Abortion compromise...what do you think?

[Feisty Mouse]

If a baby/fetus is actual concieved by two people, what about the Father's right to protect the child/fetus from abortion? When, how does a man who wants to have the chance to say yes or no about the life he helped create get any rights? It is more than just a woman's body issue.

As a citizen and a thinking human being, I can have an opinion on this topic

But, primarily, that *is* the issue - what a woman has the right to do with her own body. I realize there are more complexities to it, but that is the main issue. I'm not so sure that, if a man could become pregnant for 38-40 weeks and carry a growing weight in, say, a testicle, or his intestinal cavity, that he would be as concerned as to what another person wanted. Pregnancy and birth is a huge process that changes your physiology forever.

 

[Tgace]

He could have made the choice not to impregnante that woman in the first place. That is when he gets to make his choice.

Ummm....except for rape, I think thats a two way street.

The whole concept of "your opinion dosent matter" seems odd coming from a crowd that believes their opinions on anything else (war, taxes, politics etc.) does. If i were to say "your opinion on X doent matter because you arent a (LEO, Military, president)" I would get shouted down pretty quick. Granted this topic is different, but when the basic concern is the value of human life, I think all of our opinions should matter.

 

[raedyn]

But, primarily, that *is* the issue - what a woman has the right to do with her own body. I realize there are more complexities to it, but that is the main issue. I'm not so sure that, if a man could become pregnant for 38-40 weeks and carry a growing weight in, say, a testicle, or his intestinal cavity, that he would be as concerned as to what another person wanted. Pregnancy and birth is a huge process that changes your physiology forever.

yes. and not only yr psysical self, either.

 

[Feisty Mouse]

Ummm....except for rape, I think thats a two way street.

The whole concept of "your opinion dosent matter" seems odd coming from a crowd that believes their opinions on anything else (war, taxes, politics etc.) does. If i were to say "your opinion on X doent matter because you arent a (LEO, Military, president)" I would get shouted down pretty quick. Granted this topic is different, but when the basic concern is the value of human life, I think all of our opinions should matter.

Everyone's opinions should matter - but not everyone's opinions should be dictated by law as to what I (or someone else) can or can't do.

I think everyone's opinions matter as to war, LEO, etc., but for certain regulations, for certain abilities, LEOs will be able to say with more more knowledge as to what they do and don't need. it won't always be perfect, but experts have a bit of a lead on the opinions.

 

[rmcrobertson]

Well, I guess making up quotes and claims IS a lot easier than discussing issues. Please show me where I said, wrote, or implied anything about, "evil men--" and please note that this sort of made-up stuff remains the typical self-defense move in these contexts.

Personally, I think ALL the arguments against abortion are perfectly valid, in their way, and men have every right to make them in the same way anybody has the right to argue their ideas in public and in private.

I'm simply arguing that men, whatever their motives, do NOT have the right to make these choices for women.

Again, we have a compromise now: don't want an abortion? Don't have one. And, the government doesn't get to make this choice for you.

Funny how women are, "special," and "unique," until that tactic gets in the way. Then, it's a good quick case of, "Well, but shouldn't men have the right to be the same as women?"

 

[GAB]

It's kind of hard to get a statement about things like this without qualifiers. If you want my opinion or my beliefs...I feel that in most cases abortion is wrong.

But you're still going to get those qualifiers, because my beliefs have absolutely no weight in this argument since, like others have said, I'll never be pregnant and be put in a situation where I would have to choose.

Again, more of my personal beliefs, no matter what you call an unborn child...be it zygote, embryo, fetus, or baby...the fact of the matter is that in today's world, with modern medical care most likely, the pregnancy will be carried out to term and there will be a brand new little person in the world because of it. I have no problems with birth control or other methods of preventing pregnancy...

My mom was pregnant with me at 20...my grandma gave birth to my uncle when she was 15 and my mom not too long after that...both situations where there would be a good chance of abortion today...and if either of them would have decided to take that road, bignick wouldn't be here today...

There are exceptions for me...as others have said pregnancy due to rape or if the mother's life is in danger (I guess using the word mother is prejudice because to be a mother you need a "baby") ....

In my head, theoretically, even the medical complications that endanger a woman's life are still a gray area...because to me it says that your life is more important than the life of the child...but, in reality, if my wife or girlfriend were pregnant and the doctor said that if you carry this pregnancy out, there is a good chance you will die....you better believe I wouldn't even think twice about her getting an abortion because her life would be more important to me than the child...

Like Tgace said, people try really hard to avoid labels like Pro-abortion, Anti-Choice. Am I against abortion? Yes, my beliefs say that it is wrong to take the life another human being and to me there is a very fine line between taking and merely preventing the life to be fully realized...where should that line be drawn...I have no idea. At the same time, am I pro-choice? Yes, because like others have said...I have no right to impose my beliefs upon others and personal beliefs can change, down the road something could change my perspective...I hold by my beliefs, but if I realize something needs to change it does, because that's where I feel things go wrong, when things get "set in stone" and people are unwilling to change, compromise, or even discuss the matter...I do plenty of things against other peoples beliefs...I work on sunday, I practice martial arts(which means I'm going to hell, by the way, if you missed that thread), I eat pork products (which if you read the Bible, is supposed to be against my beliefs too)...

I have muslim friends and I'll sit with them and eat a bacon cheeseburger and will they jump and beat me down because what I'm doing is against their beliefs, of course not....because, like me, they realize not everyone has the same beliefs as they do and the are willing to accept that...if I asked them about it, they would explain to me why they think it's wrong and that would be the end of it...discussion can be healthy....but they know they aren't going to convert me to Islam and I won't convert them to Christianity...so there is no real reason to discuss it further....the same goes for abortion in my case......words on the internet won't change my views...but I don't expect my words to change yours either...

Hi All

If you read the whole post it is very clear....

I have asked persons not to just take a line out and quote it is not a fair way to go...

Looks more like the Presidental debate that way...

Regards, Gary

 

[raedyn]

Everyone's opinions should matter - but not everyone's opinions should be dictated by law as to what I (or someone else) can or can't do.

Well said.

When I became pregnant, I certainly consulted the other half of the equation (the man!) and I took his feelings on the metter to heart. But I still felt I had to do what was right for me. And he backed me up on that. He told me that he wanted to have the child, but would respect whatever choice I made. Fortunately, we agreed on what the right path was, and we happily parent our unplanned daughter.

 

[kenpo tiger]

My husband is the only one whose opinion absolutely, positively matters when it comes to highly personal issues like this. We are together almost 30 years for a reason -- he is unique, he will ask my opinion and consider it valid, and we share in all major decisions. Why? Because I know he cares about me, as I do him.

Apparently a number of you are also evolved men - Robertson included! (I am still in shock...)

Whatever the rest of you decide within your marriages or relationships is also your choice - not the Federal, State or local government, not your church/synagogue - you and you alone. Certain rights should never be subject to legislation.

Biggie,
As to your contention that you would never have been born, I doubt it. Things were very different half a generation ago - my half, where we marched for women's rights, fought for on-campus women's centers, fought for safe, legal abortions, and fought for equal pay (well, we still are, but you get my point). Some of those things were radical ideas back in the early 70s when I was in college. So it's safe to assume, I believe, that things were different for your grandmother, who is probably around my age or within 5 to 7 years of it. Sure, we had a choice: 1) Keep the baby, try to raise it alone; 2) Get married (horrors - how Establishment and over 30 of you!); 3) Put the baby up for adoption; or 4) Go to some butcher with a coathanger who charged an exorbitant amount of money to 'save' you the hassle. Your choice.

Oh - great discussion, by the way. Everybody. Pulled me right out of lurking.

I am
Woman by birth. Mother by choice.

 

[bignick]

Biggie,
As to your contention that you would never have been born, I doubt it. Things were very different half a generation ago

i realize that...which is why my grandmother was married when she was 15...and still married today...

my comment there was more hypothetical than anything else...obviouslly...she didn't have an abortion...

by the way...this is a great discussion...i don't think many peoples minds are being changed...they usually aren't on something as contreversial as this...but on the same token...this thread has gotten pretty big and remained civil...which is unusual....especially when the topic is as contreversial as this

 

[Flatlander]

I am
Woman by birth. Mother by choice.

Kind and reasonable by nature. :asian:

 

[Feisty Mouse]

Awww, flatlander! And it's true....

Some of the women I know (such as myself) who are vociferously and strongly pro-choice are also just as strongly convinced that they would never have an abortion themselves.

I have to say, this has been one of the most calm discussions about abortion I've ever witnessed. I'm impressed with everyone here. Obviously, this is an incredibly personal, delicate, and passionate issue.

I'd also like to mention that, of the women I know who have had an abortion or have had to think about it (broke, "father" saying "take care of it, I don't want a kid", whatever), it was agonizing. Almost all decided not to have an abortion, one or two decided to. But I have not witnessed myself any woman take this issue lightly in any way.

Interesting story - I had an argument about abortion with my ex, once. He was ranting about how "people" (who exactly, I'm not sure) use abortion as a means of birth control. I was pretty stunned and argued back that that is not the case. Who *wants* to go through an abortion? He stuck by his stance that the vast majority of abortions are unnecessary, and women should have their children if they get pregnant. I said, So if I accidentally got pregnant, I would have the child. And then he freaked out and said, "What?!? Wait, I didn't say that, we're in no position to have a child, we don't have much money...." etc etc etc. Aside from how FLATTERING that was to hear (ha ha), it was a great example of talking about issues versus living them.

 

[RandomPhantom700]

Well, I guess making up quotes and claims IS a lot easier than discussing issues. Please show me where I said, wrote, or implied anything about, "evil men--" and please note that this sort of made-up stuff remains the typical self-defense move in these contexts.

In your previous post, you wrote:

Funny that there's a long list of issues men like (guns, cycle helmets, cigarettes, etc.,) where it's all personal choice--but oh boy, let it be a matter of a WOMAN'S personal choice, and abruptly there are More Important Things to Be Considered.

You refer to these issues as being liked by men--not some men, not most men, not a specified subgroup of men, but men in general, and attribute to them attempts to suppress "WOMAN'S personal choice". Furthermore, I didn't know that you were talking about any one specific argument against abortion, but any anti-abortion arguments in general.

So, that's where I got my assessment of what you were saying. If it's innaccurate, please show me where, 'cause believe it or not, I'm genuinely curious.

I'm simply arguing that men, whatever their motives, do NOT have the right to make these choices for women.

I don't really think that's the issue, or at least the entirety of it. The question is whether the law (and thereby all of society, not just men) can forbid abortions in order to protect fetuses, just as it does forbid murder to protect its citizens. To show that, you'd have to show that fetuses are humans, which is where the brain waves explanation comes in. In other words, this isn't an issue of men dictating women's actions, but of the government's interest in protecting fetuses.

 

[Feisty Mouse]

I don't really think that's the issue, or at least the entirety of it. The question is whether the law (and thereby all of society, not just men) can forbid abortions in order to protect fetuses, just as it does forbid murder to protect its citizens. To show that, you'd have to show that fetuses are humans, which is where the brain waves explanation comes in. In other words, this isn't an issue of men dictating women's actions, but of the government's interest in protecting fetuses.

I think that is the issue. Is a fetus a person, with rights? (and although the government does not allow murder all the time, how come it puts citizens to death?)

Does brain waves = human? I don't necessarily think so.

This is an issue of the government - other people, both men and women (though still mostly men) telling a woman that her decisions and her rights over her own body and her reproductive choices may come second to something else that they think is a person. Is it? It certainly has the potential to become one. But so does an egg, or a sperm.

"Every sperm is sacred, every sperm is great...!" (A great Monty Python song from The Meaning of Life about not using contraception.)

 

[rmcrobertson]

I think that that is very much the issue--the woman's right--not the State's not men's not even her husband--who get the right to make the decision.

Your "warrant," seems to be (was teaching basic Toulmin--ho-hum--tonight) that women, left to their own devices, aren't capable of reaching an informed, rational and moral decision about whether or not what they're carrying is in fact a child or not.

The practical reality of it is this: when the State intervenes, we have an considerable and indeed overwhelming majority of men telling women what to do with their bodies. I find it contradictory that a number of men are firmly opposed to the State intervening in what they consider to be their personal lives (yes, over just as serious issues--like life), have absolutely no problem in arguing that the State should intervene in women's when it comes to choice.

We already have a compromise. Men aren't allowed to force women to have, or to not have, an abortion, insofar as the law and State power are concerned.

The problem is, a number of guys don't like the compromise. They object on religious grounds (and the State and the Law have no right to interfere with their religious beliefs, which are private and personal and sacred), and (more obscurely, they object because reproductive rights inevitably mean that men lose control over what women do.

And then there's this: if the woman you're involved with is pregnant, why exactly do you need to have the bullyboy State step in and tell her what do do? You can't present clear arguments, love and support of your own? To me, it's like saying that you NEED the law to force women to go along with what YOU want.

 

[RandomPhantom700]

It's not just guys who are arguing for the use of law to prevent abortion, you know. Plenty of the fundamentalists who are arguing the "Pro-Life" stance are themselves women (ironically enough, Jane Roe from "Roe v. Wade" being one of them). You keep framing your argument in terms of men enforcing their wants over women, but it's much more general than that. The question isn't "Should men be allowed to override women's choices in what to do with their bodies?" but "Are unborn fetuses in fact human, and therefore deserving of the same protection that other citizens of the state receive?"

 

[GAB]

Hi,

Sounds like the state is interested in the newborn for the monetary value of it in respect to have it(cost money) give it to the state and we will sell it(make money).

More like an economics issue...take money in one hand and give it out with the other...

Hmmmmm Will they be able to write it off on their income tax.

Regards, Gary

 

[Feisty Mouse]

It's not just guys who are arguing for the use of law to prevent abortion, you know. Plenty of the fundamentalists who are arguing the "Pro-Life" stance are themselves women (ironically enough, Jane Roe from "Roe v. Wade" being one of them). You keep framing your argument in terms of men enforcing their wants over women, but it's much more general than that. The question isn't "Should men be allowed to override women's choices in what to do with their bodies?" but "Are unborn fetuses in fact human, and therefore deserving of the same protection that other citizens of the state receive?"

a) that's up to each individual's belief - how do you call a fetus at a certain stage a person vs not? It's always "human" in terms of the species, but when is it an individual?

b) when someone/something that may or may not be considered an individual overrides a woman's rights to choose/do with her body and reproduction as she wishes, then who does the State protect? The existing, tax-paying citizen, or her potential offspring?

Just because there are women in the pro-life movement does not make it any more right to me. They are trying to impose *their* will on other women's bodies. Again, not OK.

 

[RandomPhantom700]

Feisty Mouse:

I didn't mean to be speaking either for or against abortion. I'm honestly not entirely sure where I stand on the issue, either of whether or not the act is right or, if that answer is no, whether it should be legislated. Every time I start to lean towards one stance, the other becomes more appealing. Not that it really matters; as a guy, I really wouldn't have much say in the decision.

I wrote my previous post simply to point out that the arguments against abortion shouldn't be framed as men oppressing women's rights to choose, but as a question of whether society has an interest in protecting fetuses.

 

[loki09789]

Well, I guess making up quotes and claims IS a lot easier than discussing issues. Please show me where I said, wrote, or implied anything about, "evil men--" and please note that this sort of made-up stuff remains the typical self-defense move in these contexts.

Well, let's see. Implying that men make up abortion laws in order to subplant women and the constant mention of white corporate/capitalist males across the MT would support that....along with the constant accusation that others (to include me) don't discuss the issues but just make stuff up or support our positions as well...

 

[Tgace]

So its up to women to each decide if the fetus is a "person" or not?