FearlessFreep
Senior Master
You should see how I developed my "Lightening Duck Do"
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FearlessFreep said:You should see how I developed my "Lightening Duck Do"
Very true! Nicely put. I have my own methods of training, and I could open a school and make up some crazy name for it like DeLamar-quando-fu or some crap like that. But basicly its just a bunch of techniques and drills that I have put together from all of the cross training I have done. Its nothing new, just different combinations of the same stuff from other styles. Basicly what I am doing, along with many other martial artists, is practicing the JKD philosophy by taking what I like and dropping the rest. People do this all the time and then try to say they have created something, when they have just done what Bruce Lee has been telling people to do for years.Andrew Green said:There are no "new" martial arts, just different ways of arranging the same stuff, and using different pieces of a larger puzzle.
Beyond that anyone can call what they do whatever they want.
Think about it in other businesses, not all corner stores are called 7 eleven, yet they all got basically the same stuff. Marketing and branding in martial arts is the same as it is in every other business. Some people like to call their business by a well known name and follow the standards of that name, others prefer to give it their own name and make thier own rules.
"Standard" ones are all basically the same. You know what to expect,.
Non-branded ones are not as predictable. A lot are crap, but a select few are great.
That's certainly a specific style to train the practitioners for a specific type of encounter. You're suggesting though that it's more of a style than an art, so can I ask...Cujo said:I mostly agree with what has been said. There are alot of people out there "marketing" their "new" martial arts. I think that MMA and JKD do follow a differant philosophy tho, in that they both take what they believe is useful and disregard what they feel is no longer useful. An example I would use is Clo Qu Ba Ha-Jutsu, a style that I practice. Maybe style is not the right word to use. Clo Qu Ba Ha-Jutsu is not a new art, it's basically a MMA with the stipulation that all techniques used must be able to be performed in full police gear, by most officers, and not count on strength so much as technique. Also the techniques taught must follow "use of force" guidelines that apply to LEO's.
Pax
Cujo
Cujo said:I also would like to think that we may one day see a truly "new" martial art.
MartialIntent said:I'd be interested in any opinions
At what point do you see a style as merely an instructors interpretation of his or her art, at what point does it become an offshoot / mutation / separate categorization within the art and at what point does a style become a reinterpretation creating a totally new martial art?
Respects!
Mark - this I have no problem whatsoever with - if an instructor shifts emphasis according to what his students want or to serve the community he or she is a part of, then I'd see that as adaptability - which as martial artists I think is one of our strongest attributes.The Boar Man said:Interpertations of a system might be what this instructor thinks the emphasis should be and how than he teaches it but keeping it within a certain structure that is bigger than himself.
Mark
MartialIntent said:bits and pieces of various Okinawan Karate styles - I'm sure he even mentioned western boxing at some stage. Quite a portfolio. All these he was confident he could meld into a coherent, street-clever form.
To me, it just gave the impression of something that was gonna come off half-assed and would further dilute what are the original, well-formed and tightly evolved arts that we love into a mismatched and awkward system that wouldn't be adding anything to the martial knowledge we have already.
Flying Crane said:When he starts to teach his students his "new" art, often they end up lousy. This is because after the pieces get mixed up and much of the original stuff is thrown away, the new art does not build the foundations of the different components the way studying them individually does. The founder of a new art may be very skilled, but often the next generations in that new art get worse and worse.
kroh said:Very well put. And this is often what we see when these things get put together. Just a hodge podge of the most effective techniques with no firm foundation to build upon.
Certain examples of when two seperate forms are put together for a strong whole exist in the SE Asian martial art of Kuntao. Kuntao occours when Chinese settlers bring their martial arts with them to a new place. Once a little time goes by, the art may encorporate some of the fighting aspects of the new region but it still retains its fighting essence. For example, Kuntao that started off with Wing Chun as a base still closely resmbles wing chun. These martial arts occour when some one who knows one of these systems spends significant ammounts of time in their new home. After decades go by, the new enviornment flavors the orginal gradually. Allowing for trial and error defines what works within the original framework and what doesn't . There are Kuntao expressions that contain, Wing Chun, Southern Quan Fa, Choy Li Fut, Ba Gua Zhang and even some Pa Qua. These work well within the indigeonous fighting methods of the Philipines, Malaysia, Indonesia and other SE Asian countries. Kuntao expressions are even forming in the US as some chinese and in some cases Japanese (Vee Kuntao, Vee Arnis Jutsu) arts are blended into the arts of the Philipines. These Blends usually take decades to work out. People run into trouble (ineffective garbage with no real fighting ability) when they just through something into something else before they really have the training to understand it. In one of his articles, Adam Hsu commented on Kung Fu he encountered in South East China and places like Indonesia or Malaysia. Many times they called it Kuntao (southern Chinese for Fist Method {Quan Fa}) but he said it had nothing in common with real Kung Fu. These were the systems probably hacked and cobbled together instead of crafting them.
These cut and paste systems will have their shot. Most likely they will come up wanting. Time will show what new fusion form will stand the test and keep going.
Regards,
Walt
Agree wholeheartedly. So I'm wondering what breadth of martial understanding a practitioner would need to establish something that's really not been seen or done before?? S'pose we'll have to wait and see...Flying Crane said:I think that sometimes a person thoroughly studies several arts and then combines them into a "new" art. This person may be in fact very very good. But I believe he is good because he studied each art thoroughly before combining them.
kroh said:1) Another point to bring up is whether or not what you are seeing is a new system or not. Some one might decide to leave a certain organization for one reason or another and in order to put space between one branch of the family tree and another, they rename what they are doing. This seems to be prevalent in the Kenpo community here is the States. Some one gets mad at someone, has a flash of insight, or heard God speaking through his cocker-spaniel (no Tengu in the USA) and decides to break from the family and start their own lineage. In this case the art remains pretty much untouched and just becomes "new" in name only.
2) In this day and age there is really no need for a new system of melee combat. There is more than enough instruction and the old methods work just fine. The only thing I would see as needing its own system is if people started fighting in zero gravity ( don't laugh...you know some kook is bound to say he is ahead of his time and trying to develop this...Any one see the Space alien Martial Art yet?).
3) In the United States the popular trend seems to be a push toward modular martial systems gaining popularity such as JKD, Systema & CQC/RBSD (Hochheim, Wagner). It is a great concept to have a fighting method that can use "plug and play" manuvers and tactics/techniques without haveing to create a whole system. In the Asian arts, systems become fixed and become almost living treasures. To add or subtract something "changes the art." In the American mode of thinking, we tend to quote Mr Lee. Strip what doesn't work and encorporate what does, and be sure to add what is uniquely your own. Look at MMAP. Great program with a lot of potential (Still not sold on the ARMY Program yet...But I am not too convinced I like their approach).
4) So what happens when a person learns several different martial arts and teaches them under the same roof? Should they be combined into a new whole (if they mesh together) or should they be seperate?
Regards,
Walt
MartialIntent said:Mark - this I have no problem whatsoever with - if an instructor shifts emphasis according to what his students want or to serve the community he or she is a part of, then I'd see that as adaptability - which as martial artists I think is one of our strongest attributes.
I'll give an example to the contrary to illustrate my gripes! Recently I attended a prelim session of an instructor - it being his intention to get something new going and to ascertain interest. This guy had backing, more than enough enthusiasm and belief in what he was embarking upon and a slick presentation - and what was it? Another self-defense program. Again, I have absolutely no problem with that but from hearing him speak and talking to him afterwards, it seems he had some knifework [Sayoc on the FMA side and some Pencak Silat] and bits and pieces of various Okinawan Karate styles - I'm sure he even mentioned western boxing at some stage. Quite a portfolio. All these he was confident he could meld into a coherent, street-clever form.
To me, it just gave the impression of something that was gonna come off half-assed and would further dilute what are the original, well-formed and tightly evolved arts that we love into a mismatched and awkward system that wouldn't be adding anything to the martial knowledge we have already.
Incidentally, I'm not deriding MMA's either since those arts are claiming nothing other than being "mixed" - which is open and honest about where they're coming from and what they're doing - and good luck to them.
Kroh - excellent points too... Not sure about the zero gravity arts [though it's probably only a matter of time!] but i'm wondering about a future incorporating firearms into the arts for example? Just a thought...
Respects!
MartialIntent said:Agree wholeheartedly. So I'm wondering what breadth of martial understanding a practitioner would need to establish something that's really not been seen or done before?? S'pose we'll have to wait and see...
Respects!
Flying Crane said:I think that sometimes a person thoroughly studies several arts and then combines them into a "new" art. This person may be in fact very very good. But I believe he is good because he studied each art thoroughly before combining them.