A Silent Passing.......*obituary*

[Jay Bell]

Yes, Really.

From the Department of the Treasury:

The motto IN GOD WE TRUST was placed on United States coins largely because of the increased religious sentiment existing during the Civil War.

Until recently the Ten Commandments were in every courthouse.

I personally have never seen the 10 Commandments in a courthouse, save for the recent pictures on the television.

You still swear on a Bible in court, etc.

In the two occasions that I have testified in a court trial, there was no bible to be seen, even during swearing in.

Although they are going away, you can't deny the principles this Country was founded on, no matter how hard you try.

Sooooo I guess the founding fathers were wrong then? I think a more appropriate point would be to say no matter how hard you fight to make points of the founding fathers and their beliefs, it does no good to turn a blind eye to what they actually said and put on paper.

but if these things weren't at the foundation of the Nation, how did they permeate our government? It wasn't the church that stamped our money

It *became* a facet of reality...it didn't begin that way. You're right, it wasn't the church that stamped our money. It was many appeals from religious people throughout the country asking that the Secretary of the Treasury at the time, Salmon P. Chase, to add something denoting God to currency. Most notably, Rev. M. R. Watkinson, Minister of the Gospel from Pennsylvania.

 

[don bohrer]

Thanks Tess... I enjoyed your start of this thread.

Now for the rest of you. :soapbox:

don

 

[Jmh7331]

Don's right, we could go on forever. It was fun while it lasted. Jay Bell and qizmoduis, maybe we could start another one on gun control or something. Anyway, let's save the disk space for the Martial Arts. You can always e-mail me of you want to continue offline!

PS. qizmoduis, I see you are into woodworking, have you heard of Jeff Lohr? He is in Schwenksville. I studied at his woodworking school.

 

[Jay Bell]

So a question to everyone...How do we bring common sense back?

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by Jmh7331
The 1st Amendment says: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...". How does that prohibit them from adding "under God"?

It prohibits them, Congress or the Executive BRanch of supporting this measure because if I do not believe in God then it is an offense. If I am Hindu, or Daoist, or Shinto, or even Satanist, etc, ..., .

Would you like to have teh Pledge read One Nation under Satan?
Or One Nation under Kali? (* Kali being the goddess of war in INdia *)
Or maybe one nation under our ancestors?

How about one nation under the great mother spirit?

How about one nation under the Great spirit of ___________
Insert any of teh following (* Wolf, Bear, Snake, Eagle, Hawk, River, MOuntain, etc, ..., . *)




Now as an Individual you wish to say Under God, or a silent Prayer before or after the National Anthom, then more power to you and everyone else.

This is how the words Under God may insult or make others fear for their rights to be violated.
:asian:

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by Jmh7331
Really? Take a look at the money in your pocket. "In God We Trust." Until recently the Ten Commandments were in every courthouse. They still pray to open a session in Congress. You still swear on a Bible in court, etc. Although they are going away, you can't deny the principles this Country was founded on, no matter how hard you try. You're absolutely right, freedom of religon is freedom from religion, that's why these things are slowly fading, but if these things weren't at the foundation of the Nation, how did they permeate our government? It wasn't the church that stamped our money.

And our Money is in violation to our US Constitution also.

I have said so in the past.

I think it should be removed.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by Jay Bell
Yes, Really.

From the Department of the Treasury:





I personally have never seen the 10 Commandments in a courthouse, save for the recent pictures on the television.



In the two occasions that I have testified in a court trial, there was no bible to be seen, even during swearing in.



Sooooo I guess the founding fathers were wrong then? I think a more appropriate point would be to say no matter how hard you fight to make points of the founding fathers and their beliefs, it does no good to turn a blind eye to what they actually said and put on paper.



It *became* a facet of reality...it didn't begin that way. You're right, it wasn't the church that stamped our money. It was many appeals from religious people throughout the country asking that the Secretary of the Treasury at the time, Salmon P. Chase, to add something denoting God to currency. Most notably, Rev. M. R. Watkinson, Minister of the Gospel from Pennsylvania.

In the numerous times I have been in court for varous reasons, no one asked me to swear on a bible or to God.

Yes, and just because it was done in the past does not mean it is the right thing to do today or at all.
:asian:

 

[rmcrobertson]

To begin with, we could start telling the truth in schools rather than making up all sorts of BS. Look at that garbage about the Pilgrims!

Why expect kids to recognize--let alone exercise--common sense? Their curriculum's been systematially gutted of all sorts of things that would teach it--for example, evolution, which provides a great opportunity to teach kids about basic observation and methods of drawing reasoned conclusions.

And in the humanities, fageddabouttit. Look at all the books removed from the curriculums because some kook or kook group objected; look at all the editing of history that's been done, editing that removes chances to learn from the past. Most of that editing, despite what one hears, has been pushed by rightists and religious conservatives...you might want to check out the hitory of "Huck Finn," or get on Judy Blume's website...

No right-wing revisionism? Scope out the name, "David Irving," and check into his account of the Nazis in WWII.

As for ol' Woody Guthrie, well, what they most assuredly shied away from teaching where I went to school was the fact that, "This Land Is Your Land," is fundamentally a little socialist tract about workers and ordinary people "owning," the country just as much as any rich banker or land-owner. I thought everybody knew that, and knew about Guthrie's connection to the IWW and to labor unions...

The real folks who pushed the song, by the way, sure as hell weren't "Peter, Paul and Mary." They came later--it was the Weavers (blacklisted during the 50s), and then Pete Seeger...

 

[Nightingale]

I know PP&M weren't the originals... they're just the ones I remember from when I was a kid. I remember the Pete Seeger version too.

 

[oldnewbie]

Just a quick note..

Common SENSE

If I put my hand in fire, it will get burned.
If I do wrong, I'm responsible
If I stick a screwdriver in my eye, be more careful, don;t sue the manufacturer


Common OPINION

Women should not vote
Blacks are inferior
Jews are stingy
etc.

It's sad to see the blurring of word meanings, just like tolerence somehow NOW means acceptance......

 

[Jay Bell]

Good stuff...

Oldnewbie,

So we have this flood of people who absolutely will not take responsibility for their own mistakes in life...finger pointers abound, it's THEIR fault. So what can be done to get these morons out of the court system with frivolous lawsuits and the like?

Good posts, rm and Rich.

So, it seems pretty clear that the "system", lacking common sense just doesn't fly. So what's the remedy?

 

[qizmoduis]

Originally posted by Jmh7331
Don's right, we could go on forever. It was fun while it lasted. Jay Bell and qizmoduis, maybe we could start another one on gun control or something. Anyway, let's save the disk space for the Martial Arts. You can always e-mail me of you want to continue offline!

PS. qizmoduis, I see you are into woodworking, have you heard of Jeff Lohr? He is in Schwenksville. I studied at his woodworking school.

I'm a bit of a dabbler, not even a very good hobbiest frankly. I started doing a scrollwork a few years ago and tried doing some furniture, with mixed results. I do enjoy it and am currently working on a loft bed/desk for my daughter.

I'd love to get more time to work on it. It's enjoyable. My wife constantly gives me a hard time about it. To her, if I'm doing something other than a home improvement project or something I can make money from, I'm wasting my time.

I haven't heard of Jeff Lohr, but I haven't really heard of many people. I didn't know their were any woodworking schools nearby. I'll have to look into that. I do happen to live almost next to a local rough wood supplier. He recovers old trees from developers and others and cuts and dries the lumber himself. Ronn Mann I think his name is.

 

[Jmh7331]

qizmoduis, go to http://www.jdlohrwood.com/ Try to get into one of his classes, they book fast but it is well worth the wait. I did the weekend class. You will learn a ton!

 

[rmcrobertson]

Uh...also "common sense," ideas I've recently heard:

Anybody can see that black people are better football players.
It's obvious that women should not serve in combat.
Clearly, we need to detain Arabs on suspicion of terrorism.
Patently, civil liberties must take a back seat to national security.

As for the term, "tolerance," doesn't this really boil down to an assertion that a lot of this stuff is nobody else's business? And, nobody has the right to discriminate about jobs, housing, loans, insurance, etc., simply on the grounds of their, "common sense," opinions about people they don't like?

 

[oldnewbie]

Jay

I don't know how to stop the frivolous lawsuits... until the ones bringing up the suits are penalized from wasting our courts time, nothing will change. I'm not talking about stepping on civil rights, just accountablity.

Maybe we need an even lower court system which hears the preliminary case and judges whether it has any validity.

Or maybe we need to teach the real meaning of "common sense".

Do a search for the "Bill of NON Rights" a good read.

rmcrobertson

My point was that I felt you were using "comon sense" incorrectly.

Tolerance is the ability to put up with something you may not agree with, or believe in, yet you do nothing against it.
Acceptance is agreeing with the concept.

My point was that "we" ( as a people ) are asked for tolerance on a particular subject, and when the group asking for tolerance gets it, they presume to be accepted, or seen as equal/normal/status quo. I have a problem with that. I am a tolerant person (don't ask my kids tho), but I don't accept certian issues.

 

[rmcrobertson]

Fiddlesticks.

Please tell me exactly--exactly--which group you're talking about. I'd also like to see some evidence that, "they," think this way.

 

[oldnewbie]

Please tell me exactly--exactly--which group you're talking about. I'd also like to see some evidence that, "they," think this way

I wasn't talking about a specific group, simply describing the way Tolerance becomes Acceptance, but let me see..

How about Professional Sports

At one point it was non-steroid driven.
Those that used them were looked down upon.
It became Tolerant of streoids, people looked the other way
until it became Accepted to use them, almost impossible not to if you competed.