A sad state of affairs...

[Hanzou]

Gasp....the almighty unbeatable Bjj lost to a striker....wow never thought could ever happen....

Nah, more like a lackluster Bjj school that doesn't teach proper takedowns put out a video to try to prove a point, but instead ended up embarrassing themselves and their students.

 

[hoshin1600]

And so it begins........
All arts decline and are susceptible to degradation. I laugh to myself when BJJ guys make claims that their art is better. Their proof is that the karate or other arts that they have seen or encountered is not as proficient as BJJ. The problem is the McDojo factor. Not every student in every school can be a great martial artist. It is inevitable that not great teachers will be produced and in turn their students will be less then them. Pure numbers are against any style remaining competent. Other styles like karate have been around 100 years. We will see how BJJ looks in a hundred years. The good standards that the Gracie family has maintained won't last forever. In my opinion it's already in decline and getting worse.

 

[pdg]

Not every student in every school can be a great martial artist. It is inevitable that not great teachers will be produced and in turn their students will be less then them.

While I mainly agree with your reasoning on this, there are some of us that strive to surpass their teachers and have teachers that support that aim.

With information availability as it is now, that's easier than ever before.

A not great teacher that wants their students to be better than they are can actually be a great teacher - the real problem is teachers who want to sit on a pedestal of perfection (when they're far from perfect) and don't like students passing them in skill.

 

[Hanzou]

And so it begins........
All arts decline and are susceptible to degradation. I laugh to myself when BJJ guys make claims that their art is better. Their proof is that the karate or other arts that they have seen or encountered is not as proficient as BJJ. The problem is the McDojo factor. Not every student in every school can be a great martial artist. It is inevitable that not great teachers will be produced and in turn their students will be less then them. Pure numbers are against any style remaining competent. Other styles like karate have been around 100 years. We will see how BJJ looks in a hundred years. The good standards that the Gracie family has maintained won't last forever. In my opinion it's already in decline and getting worse.

Thing is that Bjj is also over 100 years old (I'm pretty sure it outdates Funakoshi introducing Karate to Japan) and the standards were pretty much maintained in that time frame. Now we simply have instructors emphasizing the ground game to the point where they're not teaching proper takedowns. Additionally we should also keep in mind that the entire thing isn't busted like it is in other systems. Even Bjj practicioners coming out of schools like that one are learning good stuff, and they're missing out on an aspect of their game that they can pick up elsewhere fairly easily.

 

[Headhunter]

Nah, more like a lackluster Bjj school that doesn't teach proper takedowns put out a video to try to prove a point, but instead ended up embarrassing themselves and their students.

Or simply the fact the other guy was just better....as pretty much everyone has said. It's the person not the style and the boxer was obviously better at his discipline that the jiu jitsu guy....which is how it'll always work. Whoever is better wins regardless of style

 

[hoshin1600]

Thing is that Bjj is also over 100 years old (I'm pretty sure it outdates Funakoshi introducing Karate to Japan) and the standards were pretty much maintained in that time frame. Now we simply have instructors emphasizing the ground game to the point where they're not teaching proper takedowns. Additionally we should also keep in mind that the entire thing isn't busted like it is in other systems. Even Bjj practicioners coming out of schools like that one are learning good stuff, and they're missing out on an aspect of their game that they can pick up elsewhere fairly easily.

you always seem to pull facts from your "back side".
Maeda didnt come to Brazil until 1914 but what he taught was Judo. it wasnt until Helio adapted judo and made it BJJ that i would count it as BJJ. but for the sake of argument lets say it has been BJJ for 104 years. it dosent matter. it s a strawman argument. the point is that of numbers. the more people you have practicing an art the more watered down its going to get. good instructors make good students but they only make a few great students all the others are average. on the other side, average and bad instructors make consistent poor students and they make more of them. so a good instructor will turn out a smaller number of good students then the poor instructor churning out poor future instructors. one of BJJ's advantages has been its high standards to BB. with the internet instruction and BJJ becoming more popular outside of the Gracie family those standards are going to slide down hill.
those who say karate is garbage dont realize that, what i am saying will happen to BJJ has already happened to karate. i have seen the decline in my own life time.

Additionally we should also keep in mind that the entire thing isn't busted like it is in other systems.

and what i am saying is ...give it time.
now keep in mind i am comparing it to karate. if you are comparing it to aikido or taichi or something when you say "busted" ...that i cant argue. but give it time and you will see the rise of Brazilian Mcdojo's coming to a neighborhood near you. the UFC already tried to roll out MMA gyms for people that didnt want to actually compete.

 

[Hanzou]

Or simply the fact the other guy was just better....as pretty much everyone has said. It's the person not the style and the boxer was obviously better at his discipline that the jiu jitsu guy....which is how it'll always work. Whoever is better wins regardless of style

The "boxer" is also a blue belt in Bjj from the same school in question. So he's well adept at avoiding takedowns from white belts.

 

[hoshin1600]

While I mainly agree with your reasoning on this, there are some of us that strive to surpass their teachers and have teachers that support that aim.

With information availability as it is now, that's easier than ever before.

A not great teacher that wants their students to be better than they are can actually be a great teacher - the real problem is teachers who want to sit on a pedestal of perfection (when they're far from perfect) and don't like students passing them in skill.

my point is about numbers. eventually the poor will outnumber the good or great.

 

[Hanzou]

you always seem to pull facts from your "back side".
Maeda didnt come to Brazil until 1914 but what he taught was Judo. it wasnt until Helio adapted judo and made it BJJ that i would count it as BJJ. but for the sake of argument lets say it has been BJJ for 104 years. it dosent matter. it s a strawman argument. the point is that of numbers. the more people you have practicing an art the more watered down its going to get. good instructors make good students but they only make a few great students all the others are average. on the other side, average and bad instructors make consistent poor students and they make more of them. so a good instructor will turn out a smaller number of good students then the poor instructor churning out poor future instructors. one of BJJ's advantages has been its high standards to BB. with the internet instruction and BJJ becoming more popular outside of the Gracie family those standards are going to slide down hill.
those who say karate is garbage dont realize that, what i am saying will happen to BJJ has already happened to karate. i have seen the decline in my own life time.

and what i am saying is ...give it time.
now keep in mind i am comparing it to karate. if you are comparing it to aikido or taichi or something when you say "busted" ...that i cant argue. but give it time and you will see the rise of Brazilian Mcdojo's coming to a neighborhood near you. the UFC already tried to roll out MMA gyms for people that didnt want to actually compete.

Outside of a few historical mistakes, I agree with everything you said here.

And yeah, I was talking about stuff like Aikido and Tai Chi. Karate still has Kyokushin and its descendants.

 

[pdg]

my point is about numbers. eventually the poor will outnumber the good or great.

In that case, yes, definitely.

But honestly, is it really a problem anyway?

I look at it as the poor practitioners subsidise my training...

Take my tkd school - maybe 3/4 of the students are fairly poor, a few are reasonable and a very few are good or better.

If it weren't for the poor and not so good ones paying every month then the school just wouldn't be.

I try to work with the good or better to continue bringing myself up, and when I work with the not so good I occasionally see them step up (at least part of) a level.

Yes it's sometimes irksome when people use the poor as representative examples of the art - but I try to remember that they're not me, I can be better.

As for when I see them doing stuff hideously wrong? Yeah, I might make some internal sarcastic comments - but I do that everywhere anyway

I think as long as there are some who are passionate and want to put in effort to improve then the ones who can't simply keep access available.

Oh, plus they're really easy to beat in competition which helps my vanity

 

[DaveB]

Check out the Gracie challenge vids. Old school Bjj did just fine against strikers of various caliber. Royce took down competitive boxers and kickboxers in a little over a minute in the old UFC.

Something's changed, and I think it's because of the sport scene.

Perhaps it's because what one person can do with their training might be different to what another person can do with their training?

Either that or bjj sucks. It is on video after all.

I jest.

 

[DaveB]

Outside of a few historical mistakes, I agree with everything you said here.

And yeah, I was talking about stuff like Aikido and Tai Chi. Karate still has Kyokushin and its descendants.

Lol@karate comment.

 

[DaveB]

My point was that if the training is off, then it doesn't matter how much athleticism you have, you're not beating a professional fighter.

Do you think that because someone goes to an bjj school that they training like the top fighters in the Gracie family?

 

[Hanzou]

Do you think that because someone goes to an bjj school that they training like the top fighters in the Gracie family?

You're taking what I'm saying out of context. My point was that simply because someone is a exceptional athlete doesn't mean that they're going to be a good fighter. You have to be training in the correct MA as well.

Take Shawn Obasi for example; Solid athlete (at first) then became a huge joke because he was trying to bring pure Wing Chun into MMA. His trainers demanded that he utilize strikes from other MAs and he refused. After he got stomped a few times, he went back to teaching WC or whatever.

To better answer your question here; No, but you should at least be able to perform a decent takedown at Blue Belt.

 

[DaveB]

You're taking what I'm saying out of context. My point was that simply because someone is a exceptional athlete doesn't mean that they're going to be a good fighter. You have to be training in the correct MA as well.

Take Shawn Obasi for example; Solid athlete (at first) then became a huge joke because he was trying to bring pure Wing Chun into MMA. His trainers demanded that he utilize strikes from other MAs and he refused. After he got stomped a few times, he went back to teaching WC or whatever.

To better answer your question here; No, but you should at least be able to perform a decent takedown at Blue Belt.

And my point was simply that a bunch of pro fighters winning fights with bjj is no reason to expect Joe Bloggs at the local club to be able to win fights.

 

[Hanzou]

And my point was simply that a bunch of pro fighters winning fights with bjj is no reason to expect Joe Bloggs at the local club to be able to win fights.

I never made that argument in the first place.

 

[JowGaWolf]

So what's the cause of this? Is this all because of sport Bjj, or is something else occurring here?

Everything changes when punches come in and things get even more difficult when someone is actively defending against takedown attempts. Just because someone does BJJ doesn't mean that they won't have difficulty in taking someone down. There is an assumption "I take BJJ so I can take anyone down." This isn't true for most. Get a conservative striker who understands the basic mechanics of a takedown and you're going to have a difficult time.

Most BJJ practitioners are probably used to doing takedowns against a non-punching opponent. When punches come in, it's going to change the effectiveness of their take down. The videos isn't shocking to me. Very realistic in what is being said.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Learning the basic principles of closing the gap is one thing. Developing the skill and confidence to do it against a skilled boxer who is using jabs and good footwork is another. Not many people get that in their first week.

Which is why I wish more BJJ schools devoted more time towards helping students develop that skill. I have nothing against the sport side of BJJ. I just don’t want to see it lead to abandonment of the martial art.

This is the same way that some practical TMA practitioners feel about their martial art. The fact that you stated this makes me think that BJJ has already far on that path.

 

[JowGaWolf]

What's the best way to deal with the head punch? It may be the most important question in the MA.

So the issue is you will need to protect your head well enough when you move in. I have spend years and years trying to solve this issue. This is why I came up:

1. Rhino guard,
2. Chinese zombie guard.
3. Double spears guard,
4. Octopus guard.

I would love to hear other good solutions on this problem.

The best way to deal with a punch is to not be afraid of it. Respect the punch but don't feel it. This will only happen when the practitioner knows when a punch is strong and when the punch is weak. When there is opportunity and when there isn't. Without this knowledge, the practitioner is going to have reckless action.

 

[JowGaWolf]

And so it begins........
All arts decline and are susceptible to degradation. I laugh to myself when BJJ guys make claims that their art is better. Their proof is that the karate or other arts that they have seen or encountered is not as proficient as BJJ. The problem is the McDojo factor. Not every student in every school can be a great martial artist. It is inevitable that not great teachers will be produced and in turn their students will be less then them. Pure numbers are against any style remaining competent. Other styles like karate have been around 100 years. We will see how BJJ looks in a hundred years. The good standards that the Gracie family has maintained won't last forever. In my opinion it's already in decline and getting worse.

Everyone who takes BJJ isn't taking it to learn how to fight in the streets. Some do it for exercise and some don't. This will always be the case where people train with different focuses.