A sad state of affairs...

[Anarax]

which led to modern MMA grappling which ALSO teaches how to deal with strikers and grapplers.

The grappling techniques in modern MMA is a mixed bag, not just GJJ/BJJ. Wrestling has also played a tremendous factor in shaping "MMA Grappling" as well.

The problem in traditional striking MAs is that they don't teach you how to deal with grapplers (much less modern grappling) at all.

That varies from school to schools and system to system. I've studied traditional striking systems that taught takedown/grappling defenses as well as other systems that didn't. Traditional striking is a very broad category and is too diverse in methodologies to say none of them teach anti-grappling.

I do believe that even modern exponents of traditional striking arts still believe that you can just kick a grappler in the face when they're coming in for the takedown, or that their main defense against a grappler is to "never get taken down in the first place".

There's without a doubt some delusional practitioners who believe that(I've met some of them), but there's also many traditional practitioners that take anti-grappling seriously. They put a lot of time and effort in developing anti-grappling skills and are capable of defending takedowns.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Since it's very difficult (if not impossible) to punch to the ground when you stand on your feet, trying to use striking to deal with grappling is not always possible.


If a wrestler uses stiff arms and rotate both arms in circles in front of him (without striking intend), it will confuse the striker big time. But it will give the wrestler a good chance to obtain the clinch that he is looking for.

I'm not a fantastic striker, but those arms would probably just lead me to use a short low kick to force distance, and a more powerful kick if they kept it up. I don't think I'd find it all that confusing. Good striking is a better way to keep a striker at distance to set up entry.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I'm not a fantastic striker, but those arms would probably just lead me to use a short low kick to force distance, and a more powerful kick if they kept it up. I don't think I'd find it all that confusing. Good striking is a better way to keep a striker at distance to set up entry.

All wrestler knows that the best time to enter is when his opponent is kicking. You block that kicking leg, push his leading arm to jam his back arm, you will have a safe entry. If you can catch that kicking leg, that's even better.

If A and B try to punch each other, both will get punched. If A tries to punch B, but B only care about clinch, my bet will be on B. If A can't knock B down, the clinch will happen.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

All wrestler knows that the best time to enter is when his opponent is kicking. You block that kicking leg, push his leading arm to jam his back arm, you will have a safe entry. If you can catch that kicking leg, that's even better.

If A and B try to punch each other, both will get punched. If A tries to punch B, but B only care about clinch, my bet will be on B. If A can't knock B down, the clinch will happen.

My experience is that when a grappler's got his arms engaged up high (as in the example), he's less able to take advantage of a low kick, especially if he's also having to pay attention to what might happen to his arms. Kicks don't have to be slow, and they don't even have to make contact to create distance. Now, give me a wrestler who's lowered his weight and is advancing at the ready, and I will keep my legs to myself, because that's just a gift.

 

[Hanzou]

The grappling techniques in modern MMA is a mixed bag, not just GJJ/BJJ. Wrestling has also played a tremendous factor in shaping "MMA Grappling" as well.

Wrestling has played a tremendous factor in shaping Judo and Bjj as well.

That varies from school to schools and system to system. I've studied traditional striking systems that taught takedown/grappling defenses as well as other systems that didn't. Traditional striking is a very broad category and is too diverse in methodologies to say none of them teach anti-grappling.


There's without a doubt some delusional practitioners who believe that(I've met some of them), but there's also many traditional practitioners that take anti-grappling seriously. They put a lot of time and effort in developing anti-grappling skills and are capable of defending takedowns.

Do you have any examples of this? I certainly hope we're not talking about something akin to this:

 

[Anarax]

Wrestling has played a tremendous factor in shaping Judo and Bjj as well.



Do you have any examples of this? I certainly hope we're not talking about something akin to this:

No not like that. Changing angles, striking without over-committing too much, drilling escapes, learning to generate power in close spaces/ranges, etc. Drilling those dynamics with a training partner with realistic energy is where I think some schools lose sight of it.

 

[TMA17]

This may have been posted before. This is pretty sad. If you are taking BJJ, I don't see how or why takedowns wouldn't be a big part of the training. Where I was taking BJJ for a month, we did takedowns, but they were very basic. You find most BJJ schools are doing some takedowns, but they are only adequate for an untrained street thug, not a wrestler or judoka. And that's probably sufficient for 90% of the time.

 

[PiedmontChun]

W

This may have been posted before. This is pretty sad. If you are taking BJJ, I don't see how or why takedowns wouldn't be a big part of the training. Where I was taking BJJ for a month, we did takedowns, but they were very basic. You find most BJJ schools are doing some takedowns, but they are only adequate for an untrained street thug, not a wrestler or judoka. And that's probably sufficient for 90% of the time.

I don't think it is my imagination that the wrestler guy seems to have a bit of a weight advantage over the BJJ guy?? Also, I am surprised the slams were allowed, which makes me curious about the context, who was organizing this match, etc.
Wrestler guy definitely played his own wrestling game, and refused to try and pass the other guy's guard once he was on the ground. He repeatedly just stepped out and continued standing. I will play devil's advocate a bit though in defense of BJJ: if you trained nogi takedowns all the time, you'd basically be DOING wrestling and not BJJ anymore. There has got to be some balance. That said, some better takedown defense on the BJJ guy's end could have helped immensely, even if not able to offensively use takedowns against said wrestler guy.

 

[TMA17]

Well said. Where I plan on attending does gi and no gi, alternative weeks.

 

[Hanzou]

This may have been posted before. This is pretty sad. If you are taking BJJ, I don't see how or why takedowns wouldn't be a big part of the training. Where I was taking BJJ for a month, we did takedowns, but they were very basic. You find most BJJ schools are doing some takedowns, but they are only adequate for an untrained street thug, not a wrestler or judoka. And that's probably sufficient for 90% of the time.

In defense of the Bjj practitioner, if you're going against a bigger stronger guy (the wrestler had a clear size advantage) with an obvious wrestling background, pulling guard or going for hooks is your only real hope because you're simply NOT going to win in an upright takedown battle with that individual. I noticed that about midway through this fight, the Bjj guy got frustrated and fell directly into the wrestler's game where he was clearly outclassed and slammed repeatedly.

This is entirely an experience issue btw. Anyone who has been in Bjj for an extended amount of time has a story about a wrestler (or two) entering a gym on their first day and giving you fits in a roll. As you advance through the art, you'll find ways to counter those tactics (sometimes by adopting those tactics yourself). There's a reason you don't see wrestlers dominating Bjj comps in the upper ranks. Wrestlers stop popping up in Bjj competition around mid-blue belt range because you start getting people who are used to their tactics (and also leg locks are allowed).

 

[quasar44]

Bjj usually sucks In take downs

You need a wrestling coach to give classes .

In my 18 months of BJJ with 4 different instructors there was close to zero take downs

 

[quasar44]

I had no clue of anyway to take down
. I still will never be good but I have taken some mma and hired wrestling coach and learned enough for a middle school level lol

TD are exhausting . I mean it saps my energy so much

 

[jobo]

Bjj usually sucks In take downs

You need a wrestling coach to give classes .

In my 18 months of BJJ with 4 different instructors there was close to zero take downs

that's not a problem with bjj, thats a problem with the class/instructor, i've not spent anyway near enough time round different bbj clubs to say how widespread it is, but there does seem a tendency with some, certainly beginners classes, to start all moves from laying flat on your back, which is indeed a useful skill, but nowhere near as useful as the skill of not to ending up flat on your back in the first place

 

[Danny T]

Bjj usually sucks In take downs

You need a wrestling coach to give classes .

In my 18 months of BJJ with 4 different instructors there was close to zero take downs

Can't agree with that, every BJJ school I've been associated with works take downs. I'd be more inclined to say there are some BJJ schools that suck with teaching take downs.
In the BJJ we do in our program we work take downs as a part of almost every class within our warm ups.

that's not a problem with bjj, thats a problem with the class/instructor, i've not spent anyway near enough time round different bbj clubs to say how widespread it is, but there does seem a tendency with some, certainly beginners classes, to start all moves from laying flat on your back, which is indeed a useful skill, but nowhere near as useful as the skill of not to ending up flat on your back in the first place

I agree! Has nothing to do with BJJ but the particular instructors or schools not teaching or practicing them.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Bjj usually sucks In take downs

You need a wrestling coach to give classes .

In my 18 months of BJJ with 4 different instructors there was close to zero take downs

I think that's maybe a consequence of BJJ competition focus. In BJJ competition, from what I have seen (not a participant), it's rarely necessary to fight for a takedown, since the other guy also wants it to go to the ground. Some folks in BJJ have decent takedown skills - especially where they're training with an MMA focus (since the opponent may be a striker, so you'll have to fight for the takedown).

 

[drop bear]

Since it's very difficult (if not impossible) to punch to the ground when you stand on your feet, trying to use striking to deal with grappling is not always possible.

Wait. What?

 

[Dirty Dog]

Since it's very difficult (if not impossible) to punch to the ground when you stand on your feet, trying to use striking to deal with grappling is not always possible.

Your knees/hips/back don't bend? You're levitating, and your feet can't reach the ground? Huh?

 

[Deleted member 39746]

I think he means wiithout squatting down or something. Unless you are below a set height anyway. Or in some fashion making yourself shorter.