To cheese or not to cheese

[Jimmythebull]

Congratulations on being both unfriendly and offensive, while also appearing to project. Because you sound like a preteen that's "too old for kid stuff" and "just wants to train". I had a student like that. Never wanted to play games or participate in group activities because "I'm here to learn how to fight!" He was 12 years old.

I am not unfriendly or offensive..to who? you? because i do not agree with your "philosophy"
sorry but come back to real life not video games. I was a real soldier not some "game". honestly laughing.
as for any kid who was aggressive in your eyes..a boxing club as i did in the UK. you do not understand and that´s what i dislike about people who are like you

 

[skribs]

I am not unfriendly or offensive..to who? you? because i do not agree with your "philosophy"
sorry but come back to real life not video games. I was a real soldier not some "game". honestly laughing.
as for any kid who was aggressive in your eyes..a boxing club as i did in the UK. you do not understand and that´s what i dislike about people who are like you

It's sad that the UK has child soldiers. Because you're clearly not mature enough to be an adult.

 

[Jimmythebull]

It's sad that the UK has child soldiers. Because you're clearly not mature enough to be an adult.

I joined at 16 and served until i was 27. I suggest you lower your tone as you clearly know nothing.

 

[skribs]

I joined at 16 and served until i was 27. I suggest you lower your tone as you clearly know nothing.

You know what? Why don't you draw a picture of yourself in the army. If you do a real good job, maybe your parents will put it on the fridge!

 

[Jimmythebull]

You know what? Why don't you draw a picture of yourself in the army. If you do a real good job, maybe your parents will put it on the fridge!

very immature.

 

[skribs]

very immature.

I know. But you're doing your best, and I guess that's what counts.

 

[MT Admin Team]

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[skribs]

REMINDER TO ALL MEMBERS

MartiaTalk's tagline is "The Friendly Martial Arts Forum." Play nice, or this thread may be locked and points/vacations may be awarded.

__________________________
MartialTalk Admin Team

Ok, I'll put him on ignore so I'll be less tempted to respond.

 

[Oily Dragon]

In MK2, once you started punching, it couldn't be broken. My friend banned me using that tactic because I could bring him from 100 to 0 without him being able to move.

 

[drop bear]

And that's going to happen anyway (getting into bad positions). Alternatively, I'm trying to do today's move, but my opponent is never in the right position for me to even attempt it.

Some of this may be based on my Hapkido experience. In Hapkido, we're not trying to win a position battle. We're trying to get the fight over as quick as possible. Once we decide to engage, we want complete control over what's going on. We don't want to be in that bad position in the first place. Given a choice, I would much rather be aggressive.

If you are going for the one thing all the time. You are not being aggressive. You are being defensive.

 

[skribs]

If you are going for the one thing all the time. You are not being aggressive. You are being defensive.

I understand the distinction you're trying to make, but I disagree with the words you are using to make it. When I say "aggressive", I mean that I'm the one on the attack, I'm the one trying to dictate the pacing of the fight. "Defensive" to me means more that I'm either stalling or I'm trying to see what you do and counter it, sort of like a counterpuncher. You can be aggressive or defensive as a one trick pony, or as someone with robust technique.

 

[drop bear]

I understand the distinction you're trying to make, but I disagree with the words you are using to make it. When I say "aggressive", I mean that I'm the one on the attack, I'm the one trying to dictate the pacing of the fight. "Defensive" to me means more that I'm either stalling or I'm trying to see what you do and counter it, sort of like a counterpuncher. You can be aggressive or defensive as a one trick pony, or as someone with robust technique.

Clinging to a collar choke and doing nothing else is stalling. At the moment you are getting subs. But theoretically you won't if they are any good. (Or crack the sads and just can open you.)

Sorry. I might be wrong. But I am imagining you just clamping them in your closed guard and just squeezing their neck for dear life.

 

[skribs]

Clinging to a collar choke and doing nothing else is stalling. At the moment you are getting subs. But theoretically you won't if they are any good. (Or crack the sads and just can open you.)

Sorry. I might be wrong. But I am imagining you just clamping them in your closed guard and just squeezing their neck for dear life.

The first one I got in live roll, I was going for a punch choke, and it wasn't there, so I went for a cross-collar choke instead and got it. The second one, I was going for a cross-collar choke, and it didn't work, so I got the punch choke instead. In both cases, them defending the one opened up the other.

The third one was a variation I came up with on the spot (because neither that I was taught were working), it was an underhand punch with a cross grip. Today I tried a punch choke in no-gi, with a headlock instead of a collar grip. I was on top, and I either had side control or half guard. That was the first one I got the choke on the first attempt.

 

[JowGaWolf]

soon they will find ways to escape, defend, reverse and counter your technique.

This is the down side of my MMA dosing partner. I know he's always looking for a way to neutralize anything I do. I got him with a good foot hook so I he'll be looking for it. Each good technique I land will be analyze by my sparring partner.

 

[_Simon_]

It's competition slang. People find others who "cheese" very annoying opponents. It's a psychological tactic.

One of my favorite Mortal Kombat moves is Kung Lao's diving kick. Works like a charm, no can defense. Over and over you keep knocking them down and it's over fast. By the time you've beaten somebody a few times in a row with Kung Lao, they're broken and at your mercy.

Choking people in grappling works on a similar premise, especially with submission. Subs get easier to apply over time as your opponent's mind and body begin to gas.

It might just be best off trying to do what comes naturally in a given moment. that is why you're on the mat, after all. If that's something cheesy, but it would work, you'd be foolish not to close the deal. It's not just you who learns from that, it's your training bud. Skribs said he's choking out white belts left and right. Good, they need it.

And once you get good enough, in any given moment you might have more than 1 option, but feel ready to go with something you're less comfortable with, like Drop Bear said, make a mistake, get back up, learn, repeat.

View attachment 28921

YESS FIIINALLY a Mortal Kombat reference here on MT!!! Yeah Kung Lao is great, always was a fan of Scorpion and Sub Zero myself!

 

[Jimmythebull]

YESS FIIINALLY a Mortal Kombat reference here on MT!!!

 

[drop bear]

Gordon Ryan doesn't cheese.

 

[Ivan]

In gaming, "cheese" is a tactic which avoids most gameplay elements for an attempt at an easy win. For example, in the real-time strategy game Starcraft, I like to make my committed attack so early in the game, that it doesn't matter that I don't know how to scout my opponent, build up a large infrastructure, control high-tech units, or multitask an army to attack and defend multiple objectives. I just attack 3-4 minutes in the game with a small handful of army, and hope it's a bigger handful than my opponent has.

I think I've run into a similar thing in BJJ, in the form of collar chokes (specifically the punch choke and cross-collar choke). Against the other white belts, I've found these to be very easy to apply compared to the other techniques we've learned. I can do them from guard, so I avoid having to learn sweeps, escapes, and advancing position. In fact, I've gotten them from full guard, half guard, and open guard, so it doesn't really seem to matter if I'm maintaining guard. Compared to other submissions I've learned from guard (triangle choke, armbar, omoplata, kimura), there is very little setup required. For example, with the armbar, we have to isolate the arm, then turn our body and get both legs near the shoulder in order to apply it. The punch choke I need to set one grip and place the other hand.

While this is certainly an advantage in winning, it also seems to be a disadvantage in development. And it doesn't work in no-gi. (I know punch chokes can be used in no-gi, but they appear much more difficult).

So this is my conundrum - do I want to focus on making these chokes my game plan? Or do I want to avoid using them so I can develop all of the other skills? Or how do I want to balance it out? I could do collar chokes in gi and try to actually play the game in no-gi. I could do collar chokes on Mondays, or even weeks, or against specific opponents. I could do the fundamentals in positional rolling and go for collar chokes in free rolling. Or I could go for the other stuff and use collar chokes as my last resort.

I get that rolling is about improving and not necessarily about winning. But if I have something I'm good at, it makes sense to highlight it.

Hey. This is a problem that I and every other close friend who trains in BJJ have. It is very common. Personally, I have a tendency to let people escape out of my mount or side control, as I am most comfortable at hitting submissions from closed guard - in other words, it's a crutch. However, this makes your game one-dimensional. Eventually, people will come to know you as the "cross-collar choke guy". They will know it is your one and only weapon; so as long as they avoid getting caught in your cross-collar chokes (which eventually they will adapt to) they will smash your game.

This is a case of choosing to adapt, or being forced to do so. It is best you focus on the weak aspects of your game until they become your strengths. For example, I like to start off rolls with people on my level or below from a bad position such as bottom-side control. As someone who loves playing open and closed guard, I will attempt to avoid playing these positions and focus on gaining dominant positions instead. If I find myself in these positions regardless, I will try my best to work on new techniques - it is very easy to fall into the trap of doing the same thing over and over again.

There is nothing wrong with perfecting a small handful of techniques until you can hit them on everyone - I forget which one exactly but there was a Gracie who would only ever use the cross choke submission when he got to mount. Everyone knew it was coming, and that he'd use it, but they would never be able to stop it - he became a world champion with the top mount and cross choke and then moved forward to develop other submissions to the same level. However, as white and blue belts, we are still essentially beginners.

As beginners, I believe it is best to explore and gain a wide breadth of techniques, before committing yourself to a single aspect of your game, such as top pressure, guard, or in your case, cross chokes from all positions. A common perspective on this is that you should not focus on specializing in any area until you are a late blue belt or purple belt.

So, stop relying on cross chokes as a crutch, and start focusing on other areas you lack; passing, escapes, top control, open/closed guards and actively stop yourself from using the cross choke unless your opponent is higher level than you. At least, that is my advice to you that was given to me by more experienced people.