A rant...

[Xue Sheng]

I think we pretty much agree here

I agree, that's why we use our own styles and not try to copy anyone elses.



I agree with this also, which is why in my opinion the sport versions of the arts can be brought to work in a combat scenario, but I do admit it would be difficult and for combat stuff you are better learning a combat style of the art to start with. It's possible, just hard work.

But define combat.

Not trying to be a wise guy here and it could just be my definition, but Combat is, at least to me, in martial arts a fight or struggle between two persons. Therefore sports MA falls right into line with that.

However there are a lot of differences between non-sport and sport Sanda as far as what is trained and what the objective is, "Win only" vs. "survive and win". Either way you are a competent fighter, just the mind set is different. However I do not see the difference between applying Shuaijiao in the ring and out of the ring, unless you go to multiple attackers.

If you are trained to fight in a ring chances are you will not have a problem applying what you have been trained outside of it in a real fight (if you will allow the terminology). However, and this is only Sanda (Sanshou) I am not talking about not other styles, the sports version lacks some of the components of the non-sport version therefore in specific types of attacks you may find yourself lacking. Such as attacks by people with weapons for example.

But with that said there are an awful lot of Police in China trained in non-sport sanda that fight in the ring.

 

[exile]

And again

Sanda also known as Sanshou it has both sides to it and if you train non-sport you are trained moves that have been designed to do maximum damage to the other guy who is also trying to do maximum damage to you. Where if you train sport sanshou your goal is different, you want to win by points or submission, or throwing the guy out of the ring and many of those moves that cause maximum damage have been removed.

However there is still Shuaijiao trained in both and if you can use Shuaijiao in the ring it is likely you can use it outside of the ring and the only big difference in that scenario is the surface your opponent lands on. In the ring the surface on which your opponent falls can be much softer and smoother than outside of it. So what you use in the fight in the ring may do considerably more damage outside of it.

Xue, I've cut the terrain stuff out of this post I've quoted, but not because it's not important. Exactly the opposite—you could start a great thread on that topic that would take off on its own! I want to focus here on the Sanshou/San Soo techs you alluded to—I saw some clips that I believe Kidswarrior posted a while back (or was it Brian v. C.?)—very, very impressive, definitely street-combat-effective techs—fast, hard, brutally efficient and from what I could see, right on track with instinctive responses. I was very impressed. I see exactly what you mean about `maximum damage'. The crucial point here, as with combat-ready TKD and -karate (and I'd guess -Kempo and all sorts of arts) is that the training is based on realistic CQ attacking moves and counters to those attacks. From what I saw, no one would confuse those San Soo confrontations with tournament conditions.

I agree with this also, which is why in my opinion the sport versions of the arts can be brought to work in a combat scenario, but I do admit it would be difficult and for combat stuff you are better learning a combat style of the art to start with. It's possible, just hard work.

I think it's probably a matter, at least in part, of how long someone has been training. If they've been training for ring point-scoring for the past decade, they have a lot to unlearn. What I think is the crucial variable is training for range, because range is vitally connected to technique flow. Coming in from a distance, try to deliver the point-scorer, and then skip back out, is only possible when there's a sort of contract between the opponents to work at a certain range (which is encouraged, of course, by e.g. the WTF scoring system). Once you're in very close quarters, though, you need to flow from technique to technique seamlessly to keep the assailant (no longer just an `opponent', but an actual attacker) from ever gaining the initative. If you do it right, you force compliance (something recognized, and implicit, in many kata/hyung movements, interpreted correctly). Someone who's not used to working at that range is going to have a very hard time adjusting to getting stuck in, and moving with a continuous flow of attacking moves that `feed' into each other—after all, that's so different from the way sport karate/TKD work!

What I worry about is that the overemphasis on the sport side can have the effect of eroding the combat-effective side of the curriculum until the latter disappears. Maybe this is an alarmist viewpoint, but it's one reason why I'm really big on maintaining the kata, hyungs or other formal patterns of the art which encode the principles and tactical implementations of those principles for the fighting system in question. As long as you have the forms, the combat techs are recoverable. If you lose these, then that knowledge is potentially lost forever and the best you can do is try to reinvent it....

 

[Xue Sheng]

Xue, I've cut the terrain stuff out of this post I've quoted, but not because it's not important. Exactly the opposite—you could start a great thread on that topic that would take off on its own! I want to focus here on the Sanshou/San Soo techs you alluded to—I saw some clips that I believe Kidswarrior posted a while back (or was it Brian v. C.?)—very, very impressive, definitely street-combat-effective techs—fast, hard, brutally efficient and from what I could see, right on track with instinctive responses. I was very impressed. I see exactly what you mean about `maximum damage'. The crucial point here, as with combat-ready TKD and -karate (and I'd guess -Kempo and all sorts of arts) is that the training is based on realistic CQ attacking moves and counters to those attacks. From what I saw, no one would confuse those San Soo confrontations with tournament conditions.

I would agree except.... sanda/sanshou is not san soo. :uhyeah:

Sport Sanda

Non-sport sanda (however I do not know where the form he is doing comes from, could be I am not advanced enough)

Forgive the sound track on these they make it kind of silly and sureal actually

 

[exile]

I would agree except.... sanda/sanshou is not san soo. :uhyeah:

Duh... what was I thinking?

Thanks for the links, Xue! I will, as my ten year old son is always urging me to do, watch and learn.

 

[bluemtn]

Wow! Everyone has made this into a very wonderful conversation, and I appreciate your patience and input on my rant.

 

[terryl965]

TKDgirl remember those that critizize usally know nothing about anything and can be a bit touchy rmember you know what you know because you choose to.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Hi Laurie—Nice to hear from you!!! How are things going?

Judging by your post, the answer is `Very well'. And you've got a dojang with a SD-oriented instructor—a sign of a lucky person, for sure. I'm glad to hear it. SD-oriented TKD is an absolutely lethal system, if you train it hard...

Definatley self defense oriented TKD old school style is a very, very dangerous system.

 

[tellner]

It's also a question of what's appropriate, "What problem are you trying to solve?"

A soldier has specific needs, duties, equipment and doctrine. He needs one set of tools with the understanding that if you're punching and kicking in a modern war things have gone seriously wahoonie-shaped, and your family is probably going to get a visit from the Defense Ministry and an attractive photo of you with a black border.

A sixteen year old guy with more testosterone than neurotransmitters who really should be out raiding cattle probably needs a healthy sport that will push him a little physically and emotionally, give him a chance at some glory, and set the stage for a lifelong hobby if that's the way he inclines. Neck breaks and knife work are a really bad idea until the hormonal storm has abated a little.

A six year old needs coordination, learning to follow directions, socialization, comfort with new things, fun, something that makes him or her feel special, exercise that will wear him out a little (for the parents' sake ). Hitting people and increasing aggression are not appropriate the way they'd be for a MMA competitor.

To put it another way, the world's best air conditioner makes a lousy screwdriver.

 

[bluemtn]

TKDgirl remember those that critizize usally know nothing about anything and can be a bit touchy rmember you know what you know because you choose to.

Thanks Terry, and I agree 100%. That particular place I mentioned is known for the attitude of, "if it isn't muay thai or MMA, it isn't worth 2 cents!" Sure, there are other style forums, but... Well, that pretty much nailed the reason why I'm on here a lot more often than not. I don't mind a good debate, constructive critisizm, or whatever else- as long as it's positive, and someone isn't trying to cram their views down my throat. People that are always negative or forceful on their views, only makes me more hard- headed in my own views.

 

[IcemanSK]

Thanks Terry, and I agree 100%. That particular place I mentioned is known for the attitude of, "if it isn't muay thai or MMA, it isn't worth 2 cents!" Sure, there are other style forums, but... Well, that pretty much nailed the reason why I'm on here a lot more often than not. I don't mind a good debate, constructive critisizm, or whatever else- as long as it's positive, and someone isn't trying to cram their views down my throat. People that are always negative or forceful on their views, only makes me more hard- headed in my own views.

TKDGirl, the thing I've run across with other boards (or rather is unique to this one) is that many other boards have folks who are a lot younger & less experienced in ANY MA. This board is unique in that we have folks who have trained for a long time & I willling to listen to other folks. The folks who have a "Style X is the best, the rest are garbage" thought process just don't stick around here. Bob & the rest won't allow that sort of junk here. Sadly, there are plenty of other boards that think that's the kind of board they want to be. Personally, I come here to learn from intelligent folks & help if I can. I really don't have time to put down others or other arts.

 

[karatekid1975]

Hi Laurie—Nice to hear from you!!! How are things going?

Judging by your post, the answer is `Very well'. And you've got a dojang with a SD-oriented instructor—a sign of a lucky person, for sure. I'm glad to hear it. SD-oriented TKD is an absolutely lethal system, if you train it hard...

Exile! How are you? Yes, I'm doing good. Much better than I was. I have actually been training really hard the last month. I will be teaching for my instructor because she will have knee surgery next month, so that will be fun (for me, not her). I mean, she'll be there, but, I'll be doing the rest.Anyways, back to the topic. I agree with Master Terry. People that don't know about TKD, never trained in it. They "dis" it because everyone else does. But if you train in a good dojang, you KNOW that it's good.

 

[chrismay101]

No martial art is worth 2 cents if its not done right. Its just a shame TKD

Its shame that TKD is split down the middle ITF and WTF This can't help.

If Korea wanted the greatest Martial Art they they should try and unify these two groups some how. Well thats my opinion.

 

[Tez3]

I have to say that what I've heard about TKD isn't so much the actual training but about the politics which is always a shame. Articles and letters in MA mags seem to carry on this theme.

 

[exile]

Exile! How are you? Yes, I'm doing good. Much better than I was. I have actually been training really hard the last month. I will be teaching for my instructor because she will have knee surgery next month, so that will be fun (for me, not her). I mean, she'll be there, but, I'll be doing the rest.

I'm very glad that things are finally going smoothly for you, Laurie. This is definitely more like it!

Anyways, back to the topic. I agree with Master Terry. People that don't know about TKD, never trained in it. They "dis" it because everyone else does. But if you train in a good dojang, you KNOW that it's good.

This is true even more widely than TKD. People say, `martial art X doesn't teach locks and throws' or `martial art Z is unrealistic' or etc. But in any given school , X may well be taught with a full complement of locks, throws and sweeps, and Z may be taught as the hardest of hard street-effective SD systems. It all depends on the instructor. The way Iain Abernethy teaches karate, for example, grappling applications of kata-based techs are right there in the curriculum. Based on his book on grappling applications of kata and on his DVD demos, any fan of a grappling-based art might want to think twice before going to the ground with a student trained in IA's dojo or one operated by one of the people in IA's group.

No martial art is worth 2 cents if its not done right. Its just a shame TKD

Its shame that TKD is split down the middle ITF and WTF This can't help.

If Korea wanted the greatest Martial Art they they should try and unify these two groups some how. Well thats my opinion.

I don't see organizational disunity as a problem. How `organized' is Okinawan karate, say, or Modern Arnis? Most martial arts are far more `disorganized' than TKD is right now, and that's good. Monoclonal martial arts are no better than monoclonal ecosystems—diversity is the key to evolutionary success, and to my way of thinking, that's the main problem with the WTF/KKW axis (though one hopes that there will be more independence between the two orgs given recent events, but it's not clear that that's going to happen anytime soon). When there were a bunch of squabbling kwans instead of big top-down organizations, no one was disputing the effectiveness of the KMA that became TKD. It was the centralization of TKD which allowed the ROK to guide it away from combat use in the first place, in the direction of pure sport application. Tang Soo Do, which resisted that forced unification under extreme pressure from Gen. Choi and the KTA, probably has much less in the way of rep problems so far as effectiveness is concerned than TKD, simply because TSD schools retained their curriculum independence and, preserving Hwang Kee's distaste for artificial competition, were able to sustain the original fighting orientation of the kwan era KMAs in their training routines. So my feeling is, let's have less enforced unity, not more, if we want to see TKD as a whole move back towards martial effectiveness. You can be sure that the push in that direction isn't going to come from the WTF!

I have to say that what I've heard about TKD isn't so much the actual training but about the politics which is always a shame. Articles and letters in MA mags seem to carry on this theme.

And really, what good does any of that political rubbish do for the poor TKD trainee on the dojang floor who just wants to become a better MAist?

I think Kacey's school has the best idea: strike out on your own. Get the best instructors you can, develop the most progressive curriculum you can covering the most important skill sets of your art, give SD plenty of emphasis, maintain a safe and attractive training environment, and who cares that you aren't getting WTF or ITF certification for your Dan grades? If the school has established a reputation for effective, comprehensive training, that's going to add value to your black belts much more than a KKW registration number.

 

[TKDmel]

TKDGirl, the thing I've run across with other boards (or rather is unique to this one) is that many other boards have folks who are a lot younger & less experienced in ANY MA. This board is unique in that we have folks who have trained for a long time & I willling to listen to other folks. The folks who have a "Style X is the best, the rest are garbage" thought process just don't stick around here. Bob & the rest won't allow that sort of junk here. Sadly, there are plenty of other boards that think that's the kind of board they want to be. Personally, I come here to learn from intelligent folks & help if I can. I really don't have time to put down others or other arts.

I'm with you on this Iceman. In order to try and perfect my chosen art, I'm too busy training to worry about what others (especially youngsters) think.

 

[Shaderon]

I think we pretty much agree here

But define combat.

Not trying to be a wise guy here and it could just be my definition, but Combat is, at least to me, in martial arts a fight or struggle between two persons. Therefore sports MA falls right into line with that.

OK sorry I should have been more specific. Killing moves. Sport combat is points and knocking out of the ring, what I was defining as combat was basically fighting for your life.

I think it's probably a matter, at least in part, of how long someone has been training. If they've been training for ring point-scoring for the past decade, they have a lot to unlearn. What I think is the crucial variable is training for range, because range is vitally connected to technique flow. Coming in from a distance, try to deliver the point-scorer, and then skip back out, is only possible when there's a sort of contract between the opponents to work at a certain range (which is encouraged, of course, by e.g. the WTF scoring system). Once you're in very close quarters, though, you need to flow from technique to technique seamlessly to keep the assailant (no longer just an `opponent', but an actual attacker) from ever gaining the initative. If you do it right, you force compliance (something recognized, and implicit, in many kata/hyung movements, interpreted correctly). Someone who's not used to working at that range is going to have a very hard time adjusting to getting stuck in, and moving with a continuous flow of attacking moves that `feed' into each other—after all, that's so different from the way sport karate/TKD work!

What I worry about is that the overemphasis on the sport side can have the effect of eroding the combat-effective side of the curriculum until the latter disappears. Maybe this is an alarmist viewpoint, but it's one reason why I'm really big on maintaining the kata, hyungs or other formal patterns of the art which encode the principles and tactical implementations of those principles for the fighting system in question. As long as you have the forms, the combat techs are recoverable. If you lose these, then that knowledge is potentially lost forever and the best you can do is try to reinvent it....

Hmm true, I'll think about that one.

TKDGirl, the thing I've run across with other boards (or rather is unique to this one) is that many other boards have folks who are a lot younger & less experienced in ANY MA. This board is unique in that we have folks who have trained for a long time & I willling to listen to other folks. The folks who have a "Style X is the best, the rest are garbage" thought process just don't stick around here. Bob & the rest won't allow that sort of junk here. Sadly, there are plenty of other boards that think that's the kind of board they want to be. Personally, I come here to learn from intelligent folks & help if I can. I really don't have time to put down others or other arts.

#

Hear hear! That happens on so many boards, it's one reason I like this one so much. Most people are very mature posters. In "mature" I mean mentally mature, I'm not saying everyone's really old :uhyeah: