A Lot of One System vs A Little of Many

[Simfers]

Question for those that teach -

If an instructor from another school taught you a variation of a technique, that worked much better and made more sense than what you taught, would you teach that new variation to your students?

I don't teach anymore, but when I did I used to do that all the time, peppering the techniques I taught with little modifications that I'd seen somewhere, tried and found to work well for someone my size. I'd always teach the base technique as well, but no technique was so sacro-sanct as to be immune to change.

There was one instance where I was helping someone prep for their black belt exam and showed them a variation to the defence gainst a roundhouse kick. They asked me how I'd come up with it and I told them the truth:

I'd cribbed it from the Batman: Arkham Asylum video game.

If it works, it works.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If there is a goal, there must be a path to it.

This is a good point.

My

1. goal - to integrate the throwing art with the striking art.
2. problem - to obtain a clinch in a fist flying situation.
3. path - rhino guard.

 

[Buka]

I don't teach anymore, but when I did I used to do that all the time, peppering the techniques I taught with little modifications that I'd seen somewhere, tried and found to work well for someone my size. I'd always teach the base technique as well, but no technique was so sacro-sanct as to be immune to change.

There was one instance where I was helping someone prep for their black belt exam and showed them a variation to the defence gainst a roundhouse kick. They asked me how I'd come up with it and I told them the truth:

I'd cribbed it from the Batman: Arkham Asylum video game.

If it works, it works.

LOL!

 

[Buka]

I can see everyone’s point. If a teacher of mine, any teacher of mine, didn’t want me to teach something, I wouldn’t teach it. No question about that, period.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I can see everyone’s point. If a teacher of mine, any teacher of mine, didn’t want me to teach something, I wouldn’t teach it. No question about that, period.

If all your MA teachers have passed away, who is going to stop you from changing?

This is the old hip throw solo drill - you try to hold your opponent up so he will have comfortable falling (for sport).



This is the hip throw solo drill that has been changed - you try to smash your opponent so he will have hard falling (for combat).

 

[Buka]

If all your MA teachers have passed away, who is going to stop you from changing?

This is the old hip throw solo drill - you try to hold your opponent up so he will have comfortable falling (for sport).



This is the hip throw solo drill that has been changed - you try to smash your opponent so he will have hard falling (for combat).

If all my teachers pass away I won’t have that problem. But that’s not likely to happen, some of them are younger than I am. One of them used to be my student a long time ago.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

If you are a TKD guy and you learn the MT roundhouse kick, will you replace your TKD roundhouse kick (pull back after kick) with MT roundhouse kick (go through after kick), or will you do both?

I use either and both, depending on the needs of the situation in the moment.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I use either and both, depending on the needs of the situation in the moment.

I may pull back my front kick and side kick. But I will never pull back my roundhouse kick. IMO, the roundhouse kick is the same as the foot sweep, you sweep your leg all the way through, and you don't pull back.

Since I don't pull back my foot sweep, my body doesn't feel comfortable to pull back my roundhouse kick. I don't know how to train both at the same time.

 

[Tigerwarrior]

I've seen several posts from those who, for whatever reason, seem to have bounced from style to style - a year here, a couple there, another year or five somewhere else, and so on. Then, there are those who have stayed with one style for many years. And there are those who've followed a combination of these MA paths. No doubt there will be various opinions on the value of each of these MA experiences and there will be some validity to most of them.

I think the basic question involves depth verses breadth, horizontal verses vertical development. What are the pros and cons of these approaches and is there an ideal approach or balance?

I'm guilty of this in the past. When I was young I wanted to train everything. So I did do that to the best of my ability. At one point I was training bjj, kickboxing, mma, and kenpo. It was too much. I spread myself too thin. Then I switched to just bjj and I got better. But then I had to move and couldn't find a place so had the decision do I train something different? Or what do I do? So I picked something I had never done anything close to before for a whole new experience FMA. I was there for a few years, got to an intermediate level. Then life got in the way. Couldn't make it to classes so trained at home for a year or so. Then learned there were distance learning programs tried a kung fu one, learned a bit of kung fu but I am not worthy to call myself a kung fu man. Then saw a tkd school in my area, free 2 week trial, watched a few classes looked like fun so I said why the hell not? I actually got a little good at a few of these disciplines, but if I would of just picked one and stayed with that and invested the time into that art alone I would be a much better martial artist.

I think cross training is great, and everyone should do it at some point. But if you are a beginner or intermediate stick with your bread and butter. Once you get to black belt or the equivalent in your system sure cross train, but never forget where your roots are.

There's alot of talk these days about being a "one dimensional fighter" ever since the mma craze. It made popular cross training because you don't want to be one dimensional like some of the early guys in the ufc. But I'm here to tell you, although I trained in pretty much all ranges of fighting, someone who spent all the time I did in one art instead of dabbling would be much more devastating. Being a jack of all trades but a master of none is not a good plan imo. Pick a style and a fighting range, dedicate time and master it. At an advanced level sure cross train, but remember where your roots are.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If you stay in one system, and your system teaches you "1 step 3 punches", and all your 3 punches are straight punch such as jab and cross, without cross training, will you be able to figure out:

- jab, hook, uppercut,
- hook, back fist, overhand,
- hook, uppercut, jab,
- ... ?

 

[drop bear]

Me, too. And it blows my mind now even more than it used to. I remember the first time I experienced BJJ. (91, maybe 92)

My God, I couldn’t even sleep that night. My mind was going every which way. I kept thinking, “how have I never seen this before?”

Martial Arts are just the best. They really are.

I was suprised at the last seminar I did. The instructor recommended you tube videos.

His reasoning was you will train with your same 10 guys or whatever and that familiarity will let you get away with certain flaws. You can be really good and still have missing fundamentals.

Youtube you can get credentialed proven guys who have their own network and so you can pick up on these details that you might be missing.

Same with guest instructors, other systems and different guys.

 

[drop bear]

I may pull back my front kick and side kick. But I will never pull back my roundhouse kick. IMO, the roundhouse kick is the same as the foot sweep, you sweep your leg all the way through, and you don't pull back.

Since I don't pull back my foot sweep, my body doesn't feel comfortable to pull back my roundhouse kick. I don't know how to train both at the same time.

The thing is your system isn't really restricted by a theme.

You can bang out two kicks with completely different mechanics. One straight after the other if you want.

There is this weird idea that it should be. But I have never agreed with that.

 

[windwalker099]

Different styles specialize on different techniques and usually these people don’t pick them up. They don’t know how to use them. For example, tongbei is different than regular kung fu. It’s the way they use the power, the way they deliver momentum and striking force. That’s what makes it outstanding. I don’t say that these new styles are bad kung fu or anything like that. I always say ‘Whatever you do, I don’t want. Whatever I do and you don’t know – that’s how we win.'”

Used to have many conversation's with David Chin, a noted hop gar shifu..about this...
some points we agreed on others not so much...

The main point, different methods "styles" may be incompatible with each other...
Those that feel they are compatible may not have reached the point where its very apparent having only a superficial knowledge of the method feeling as some say it's just another tool in their toolbox.

Other people say, ‘Look, I can learn this in a few days.’ But to try to perfect it, to make it become part of you – you are the Hop Gar, the Hop Gar is you – that’s not easy.

yes very true,,not so easy..

Feel it's better to go deep into what ever method that suites one and "test" it against all other methods..
It may take trying a couple of different methods before one finds the one that "fits"

Some may ask about why some methods have this and not that..
In Chinese there is a saying

画蛇添足

"don't paint legs on a snake"

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

You can bang out two kicks with completely different mechanics. One straight after the other if you want.

Do you train hook, uppercut, overhand in 2 different ways?

1. Let your punch to go through your target (as showing in the following clip).
2. Pull back after the contact (I can't find such clip online).

Please tell me how to train a hook punch (similar to roundhouse kick) that you pull your punch back after the contact.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Do you train hook, uppercut, overhand in 2 different ways?

1. Let your punch to go through your target (as showing in the following clip).
2. Pull back after the contact (I can't find such clip online).

Please tell me how to train a hook punch (similar to roundhouse kick) that you pull your punch back after the contact.

This guy does follow up his hook very quickly and his combo looks like an effective one. But between the two moves, his left elbow passes the midline of his body. If an opponent is able to move in at this moment and check his elbow/upper arm he will be in a vulnerable position, unable to use either hand effectively. He does mitigate this by not turning his body during the hook, however. But most people do not have his skill.

The same potential weakness is true for follow-thru kicks like some crescents or follow-thru back fists. It leaves you vulnerable and out of position for a split second if you miss. Karate does not often use these follow-thru movements (kenpo does have a few) preferring to focus and lock at the moment of contact (chinkuchi). This contraction stops the technique's motion and even provides a "bounce back" effect. Most karate styles do snapping crescents and roundhouse kicks.

I think the efficacy of such follow-thru moves depends on if the particular fighting system is built to accommodate them. As a karate guy I would not use them unless my opponent is untrained, not aggressive or just slow. Otherwise, I would not be comfortable in using them in an actual fight.

 

[Fungus]

Please tell me how to train a hook punch (similar to roundhouse kick) that you pull your punch back after the contact.

On the heavy bag I often each time train repeated hooks with the same hand fast and as you can't strike again until you have "reloaded", you have to pull back asap. When training this I try to fine the rythm, of the hook and my upper body movements, swinging back and forth.

The different in training is that you are mentally prepare not to just launche a power hook, but already when throwing the first you, you plan on firing a fast sequence of hooks. Often to the body. I like that excercise and it's good cardio workout too as it's a maximum anaerobic power effort. I hit as fast and hard as I can. I train both head level and rib level of same strike.

In a fight I suppose this can be used both to surprise with an aggresive attacke, or as a bait, if you hook 3 times on the same side, the opponent is dedicated to defened that side, then you can surprise with something else.

 

[Fungus]

The same potential weakness is true for follow-thru kicks like some crescents or follow-thru back fists. It leaves you vulnerable and out of position for a split second if you miss.

But if you are prepare for it, you can also use it as a "bait" and await the opponents counter to the vulnerable state. As I am not very fast, baiting or tricking is my only chance. So if you have plan for what happens when you followed thru and missed as opposed to "resetting" to the original stance which is the option when pulling back.

 

[isshinryuronin]

But if you are prepare for it, you can also use it as a "bait" and await the opponents counter to the vulnerable state. As I am not very fast, baiting or tricking is my only chance. So if you have plan for what happens when you followed thru and missed as opposed to "resetting" to the original stance which is the option when pulling back.

True, but this is risky, especially if your back is presented. If he has moved in and checked your upper arm he has gained some control. Unless I am very fast there are much better ways to lure the opponent in.

 

[MuayJitsu]

I agree, so long as you look at the full quote: A jack of all trades is a master of none, but oftentimes better than a master of one

I always relate it to languages you can study French your entire life and be absolutely perfect and fluent in it and that wonderful and great….but that perfect French won’t help you if you’re talking to someone who speaks Spanish

 

[MuayJitsu]

Simply do what you like if you want to stick to one style religiously forever that’s fine if you want to mix it up and do different things that’s also fine there’s no right or wrong. Personally I like to see different techniques different aspects so that I have more knowledge and more moves I want it to be if I go in a grappling class I’ll have the advantage in striking and if I go into a striking class I’d know I have the advantages in grappling. Now overall I prefer striking and do more of that now but soon my circumstances may change so instead of doing 5 days of striking I’ll have ti make it 3 days of striking and 2 grappling