6 Count De Cadena et al

[Cruentus]

Originally posted by Rocky
Actually Modern Arnis 6 count was originally taught Espada y Daga, that would switch without interupting the flow, into stick to stick and eventually into empty hand trapping and into block and lock.

But over the years GM Presas found it hard to teach at seminars so he changed it to stick to stick, he also done away with 7 count Espada y Daga flow drill.

Rocky

I actually learned it this way also. I always stress that 6 count was originally a blade (espada y daga) exercise, that can be modified to fit the stick. I think that this is important because the footwork and blocking methods are more condusive for the blade rather then the stick. My own personal modification to the drill when going stick vs. stick is to eliminate the umbrella block, and do a slip - hand parry - stick parry - into the #3 strike, which to me is more condusive of a stick vs. stick fight.

btw Rich Curren mentioned 5 count. Wow! There was an oldie but a goodie. I remember doing that when I first started the art! It was taught to me by my old instructor Ted Redish.

 

[Cruentus]

Originally posted by Black Grass
Sumbrada as it is called by JKD/Kali comes from Cables Serrada. In Serrada it is free form. Guro Inosanto broke he drill down in to the various sub drills like 6 count and 10 count. Cabales was the student of Dizon (Decuerdas)who was the training partner of Antonio 'Tatang' Ilustrisimo (Kalis Ilustrisimo)who is the cousin of Floro Villabrille (Villabrille style) and teacher of the late Edgar Sulite (Lameco). Hence you will see a similar drill in these Systems.

I was told years ago (by a JKD instructor ) that the Prof. actually got 6 count from Inosanto, not in a teacher student relationship but via observation. This lead to some kind of fricton between the two, as prof did not give credit to Inosanto. Can anyone verify or discount this accusation.

Regards,
Vince
Black Grass

There was friction between the 2, but I heard it was the other way around. Inosanto was linked up with Leo Gaje, and GM Gaje was being recognized as the "Founder of Modern Arnis" which was completely inaccurate as this was Remy Presas' recognition/ title in the PI. Inosanto also recieved much recognition for propigating the PI arts, when realistically Inosanto was all american. Remy Presas saw this as a misrepresentation, especially considering that he was the one who worked very hard to bring Filipino MA back to his own culture in the PI, and he was also propigating the art as an ambassador for the PI, yet no credit was given to Remy. Inasanto has good material and is talented, don't get me wrong, but his training came from Bruce Lee, and other Filipino masters such as Cabales and Villabrille who were in america, not the PI. When Remy Presas came to states he was seen as a threat, and there was a huge feud between the Pekiti people and Professor. It didn't help that the reason for Professor ending up in the U.S. was due to a problem with the dictatorship in the PI, who ripped his own organization that he worked to build away from him. So, he wasn't in the best of sorts as you could imagine when the feud between Gaje and him occured. Naturally, Inosanto was lumped right along with the "other side" of the feud, as I understand it. I will say that it was my perception that the fued was carried out more so by the students of Gaje, Inosanto, and Presas, rather then the men themselves. Regardless, it got pretty ugly as I understand it between all parties involved.

So, that was the way I understood the situation. If there is anyone else who might know more about the issue, please share. One thing that I am pretty sure of, though, is that the feud wasn't over a drill.

btw - My understanding was that 6 count came from Presas' Espada Y Daga family system that he learned from his grandfather. Can anyone besides me verify this?

:asian:

 

[Toasty]

Hiya Rocky,
Actually, it wasnt obvious that you were using a figure of speech.
Had i thought that, I wouldn't have written anything and just chalked it up to "Rocky-isms"
It's just that this particular book gets maligned all the time and it's mostly because most people can't be bothered to read on the freaking cover that it says "AS TAUGHT by Dan Inosanto" - not AS TAUGHT by Remy Presas, or by me , or by you and not even by those damn aliens who apparently keep abducting you in your sleep ( I dont even want to know about any probing dude )
So the fact that Guro Inosanto never trained in (and there for doesnt teach...) modern arnis, the following point that he left Prof. Presas out is actually moot.


anyway, a silly discussion.
Rob

 

[Rocky]

Hey Rob,


Ya know what all this stuff proves???? It just proves that they were men, talented men but none the less just men.


Rocky

 

[lhommedieu]

I always stress that 6 count was originally a blade (espada y daga) exercise...

Interesting to hear this because we don't really don’t offer much single stick training; most of the drills and exercises that I learned are for espada y daga.

As a preparatory exercise for “palusot" drills, for example, the defender initially blocks all the strikes, while the attacker to trains how to check the defender's stick with the daga to keep him from getting the next block on line. For example, if I forehand strike to my opponent and he blocks the strike, my daga will momentarily check his stick on the opposite side of the stick of which my stick has just made contact. This can make it more difficult for him to block the backhand strike that occurs next, as it puts an obstacle in the way of moving the stick to block the next strike.

Best,

Steve Lamade

 

[Rich Parsons]

Just for grins I wonder about these things as well.

1) When you refer to the #3 is it a high #3 as in a horizontal strike to the shoulder or low as to the hip?

When I learned the patterns it was more of a #1 (diagonal to the shoulder) and instead of the #8 to the leg it was a low #3 to the hip.

The low #3 to the hip can be blocked by the drop stick or a low wing (with a checking or passing hand), and if I remember correctly range, timing, determined what was used.

2) Is there any real history behind this (these) drill(s) since they seem pretty universal and they cross over a bunch of systems. In one of the Budo International mags there was some sort of sword system that in pictures showed basically this same drill. (I know this was discussed somewhere before, I was just using this as an example of the cross over point.)

3) Do any of you throw in inserts into the drills, like low kicks, punches, thrust with the daga, locks and chokes, disarms.

4) What about mixing in the Tapi drills with the sumbrada patterns? Anyone try this?

5) Do you teach different weapon combinations for the patterns, stick vs knife, dobule stick vs double or single stick, espada y daga vs......?

FWIW I had pretty much abandoned (put off) teaching these patterns since I had asked GM Remy when I should teach his Tapi Tapi material (thinking high green or brown belt level, silly me) when he replied from the begining (meaning begining students). I figured if I taught the Tapi versions the concepts of leading the person (setting them up in the Tapi drills) would conflict with the I feed and you feed (shadow) type patterns.

Mark

Mark,

The description you gave is valid. I have seen it done this way. Neither way is wrong and neither way is more right. The reason I choose the description above, is not only he basic pattern we teach, it covers high/mid/low strikes and blocks. This in essence then teaches you how to cover strikes in all areas of the body. The more high srikes may be more applicable in the sense that many people are head hunters to knock people out. I would hope that after a while the student should be able to do both forms, and then it almos becomes a free form sparring drill, for this means that the strike could be either high or low on this side of the body, or a thrust or no thrust, which keeps the students awake, and paying attention to the task at hand.

:asian: