6 Count De Cadena et al

[lhommedieu]

Rich P -

Yes, I meant Rich C - but am interested, of course, in anything anyone wants to contribute. Two excercises from SME:

A: Check w/ Daga & Strike #1
D: Block Strike #1, Check w/ Daga, Strike #4 (to leg)

A: Block w/ Stick in Vertical Position
D: Backhand vertical flywheel

A: Wing Block; rotate wrist and strike downward (MA #12?)
D: Block (roof block), check w/ daga & Strike #1 to switch roles

***

A: Check w/ Daga & Strike #1
D: Block Strike #1, Check w/ Daga, Strike #4 (to hand or leg)

A: Check Strike /w daga as you withdraw hand and rotate stick to outside to form low wing block (D's stick is momentarily between your daga and stick). Continue rotation to deliver short Strike #4 to D's hand.

Drill can end here or D can withdraw hand and initiate Strike #1 from opposite hand to continue drill.

Best,

Steve Lamade

 

[Emptyglass]

Originally posted by Rich Parsons
Rich C,

Would you be so kind as to elaborate on your drill? Either in this thread or in a separate thread?

Thanks

Will do. Give me a bit to get the time to type it out.

Thanks,

Rich Curren

 

[Dieter]

Will do. Give me a bit to get the time to type it out.

Better just grab a camera, film it, digitize it and put it on the internet. Probably takes as long as to type in and is easier to follow.


Just joking. Looking forward to see what you will write.
Would be interesting to see a while later, what different persons make out of what they read. Could be different.


Regards


Dieter

 

[Emptyglass]

Deiter:

You'll have to do with the text I'm afraid. I'll work on it later today.

Thanks,

Rich Curren

 

[Emptyglass]

Hi all:

Again this is really 3 separate simple sumbradas that have been strung together to be one drill. A 4 count, a 10 count and a 6 count. I was taught them separately at first and then in combined fashion. I 'll type them separately at first and then combined at the end.

First drill:

Beginning position is attcker in the ready (whatever ready position your system uses) and defender in the position we call "old man waiting for the bus", basically hands in front at waist level with empty hand over weapon hand facing the attacker in a realxed position. By the way, these drills are presented here for the single stick reference. they can easily be done with the blade of varying lengths or the empty hand, however there would have to be angulation and footwork/distance changes to account for the other weapons.

1. Attacker swings #12 downward vertical strike at crown of defender. Defender does payong defense.
2. Defender swings #12 downward vertical strike at crown of attacker. Attacker does payong defense.
3. Attacker swings #12 downward vertical strike at crown of defender. Defender does slant/wing/roof defense.
4. Defender swings #12 downward vertical strike at crown of attacker. Attacker does slant/wing/roof defense.

This is then repeated. This sumbrada is for working out the proper angulation, shifting, footwork and movement for the static payong and wing block. Increased force and movement to make the defender and attacker stick or follow one another's lead make it more challenging. you can also mix up the angle of delivery overhead, levels of attack and the order of defenses. However, it works best when the blocks are done in pairs (ie: payong following payong and wing following wing) Very simple but interesting. I hope you folks give it a try and enjoy it.

Up next, Sumbrada 2, 10 count when I get the time to type it.

Thanks,

Rich Curren

 

[lhommedieu]

Originally posted by Rich Parsons
Varients or Options

Instead of passing the low line number 8 strike you can also check it with your left hand and strike down to keep the same stick flow pattern.


Another option is too, to step back on the incoming low line number 8 strike and block with a down to the right.

One that I learned involves the defender bending the knees and dropping the stick into a vertical block (the assumption here is that you don't have time to move the leg back). The attacker now has the opportunity to attack again with a backhand vertical cut to the head, to which the defender responds with an outside wingblock, etc.

Best,

Steve Lamade

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by lhommedieu
One that I learned involves the defender bending the knees and dropping the stick into a vertical block (the assumption here is that you don't have time to move the leg back). The attacker now has the opportunity to attack again with a backhand vertical cut to the head, to which the defender responds with an outside wingblock, etc.

Best,

Steve Lamade

Steve,

Yes, I like this one my self. Yet it is hard to get students to 'genuflect', or to understand the bending of the knees

Very Good Point, that there is always one more option.


:asian:

 

[lhommedieu]

re. the aforementioned drill:

One point I make to students is that A's #8 to the leg does not necessarily have any windup after A's block to D's #3 strike. It can simply fall and damage the quadriceps or TFL attachments at the bottom of the femur, smack the knee, etc. If you see a windup, however, it may be possible to angle or move to a better position, so there are other options that give you more mobility.

The point of any response to a #8 strike or anything similar is protect the leg - either by moving it or by getting something in the way. I've been tagged enough times to know it ain't easy...

Best,

Steve Lamade

 

[Black Grass]

Patterns for counter for counter drills are nice to learn initially but ultimately you should try to do counter for counter free form. Any block can be followed up with any strike not just prescribled ones. In Lameco and Ilustrisimo this is called laro-laro (play play). Not knowing where the next strike is going to come frok next, you must be more aware of not anticipating and over committing. I also like to move between ranges. Personally I often like to defend from long range and move back into medium range to counter attack.

Another way I like to do counter for counter is to pick an angle of attack an only use that angle. Partner A can attack and counter in anyway he choose, partner B can block or parry in anyway but must attack on the prescribed angle.

An example off the top of my head:

A attacks with #12
B counters /w roof

B attacks #2
A blocks basic # 2

A attacks #1
B crossadas

B attacks #2
A wings

A attacks #4
B blocks basic # 4

B attacks #2
A covers and steps out of range

A moves back into medium range attacks # 5
B palis-palis

B attacks #2
you get the idea....


In addition this also encourages footwork. Just some ideas to add to your mix.

Regards,

Vince
aka Black Grass

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by Black Grass
Patterns for counter for counter drills are nice to learn initially but ultimately you should try to do counter for counter free form. Any block can be followed up with any strike not just prescribled ones. In Lameco and Ilustrisimo this is called laro-laro (play play). Not knowing where the next strike is going to come frok next, you must be more aware of not anticipating and over committing. I also like to move between ranges. Personally I often like to defend from long range and move back into medium range to counter attack.
....
In addition this also encourages footwork. Just some ideas to add to your mix.

Regards,

Vince
aka Black Grass

Vince,

This is exactly where you should go with your drills. It should be free Flowing and random when yuo finally get it it all put together.

The drills a re jsut that drills . As Rich Curren stated they ling multple drills together. I do the same in our club. From the basic Semi-sparring to 6/8/10 Count to Palis Palis and Crossada Flow Drills. You might take a different path, and yet you are ready for what is coming at you from your opponent.

Great Discussion.

Other Comments or patterns?

Thanks!

 

[Emptyglass]

Hi all:

This second sumbrada is probably familiar to alot of people. I called it 10 count initially, but thinking about it, it is really a 5 count sumbrada on each side. Sorry for the confusion.

Here it is:

1. A: Forehand stike to temple
2. D: Fluid umbrella block around the head
3. D: Forehand strike to temple
4. A: Inside deflection
5. A: Forehand strike to elbow
6. D: Drop stick deflection with palm up to control weapon hand
7. D: Sak-Sak to midsection
8. A: Inside low umbrella/push block to deflect thrust.
9. A: Backhand strike to temple
10. D: Fluid umbrella block

Attacker and Defender will now switch roles beginning with the forehand strike to the temple.

Sumbrada #3 - 3 count:

This sumbrada is from the Pambuan system of Arnis and is a bit different as attacker and defender each throw 3 consecutive strikes and defenses rather than in a 1 to 1 pattern. This really changes the timing when mixed with 1 to 1 sumbradas. I believe that this sumbrada helps you to become used to being on the defensive if your opponent catches you by surprise or if you slip or if the opponent is a bit faster than you. It also mixes up your timing a bit if combined with the 1 to 1 drills.

1. A: Backhand to temple
2. D: Wing block
3. A: Backhand to elbow
4. D: Drop stick and pass with empty hand/daga
5. A: Sak-Sak
6. D: Counter thrust tip block


Next, 29 counts combined.

Thanks,

Rich Curren

 

[lhommedieu]

Thanks Rich. One question: a "flowing umbrella" to a backhand strike (last count of the "10 count") - is that the same as what some people call a "wing block," OR...are you steppng to the right and passing the strike to the left with a standard umbrella? Both work well depending on the timing.

We have a drill called "Tres-Tres," which is basically a Sumbrada done with lateral stepping (to the right or left, depending on the block and counter). I've heard that there may be similar drills in Doce Pares. Does anyone here do anything similar?

Best,

Steve Lamade

 

[Mark Lynn]

I have a couple of questions on these drills.

I have seen these drills spelled different ways is there any proper way to spell sembrada, sumbrada, sombrada?

I have heard that sumbrada translated to shadow (I think from asking GM Remy about it) so we have always refered to it as shadow boxing (in a sense). (I think he made some refernece to the light cast by a street light or something of that nature.)

How do you teach it? Just out of curiosity I ask this? I learned many of the sumbrada drills at first in the Inosanto blend method of the FMA. Which are very similar to the drills as described here, however most of the time it was at seminars and we learned the whole drill in one shot (plus inserts etc. etc.) Generally it was how I passed them on to training partners as well. Later on it was the Tapi Tapi drills that I learned in Modern Arnis in this same format.

However years ago I was watching a seminar of tape Guro Inosanto where he mentioned to the group of students something about how this was a year long class (or something) on the aspects of the drill at his academy. And then at the symposium Datu Hartman told us that he taught the Tapi drills in a similar format of the application of the technique instead of the flow of the drill.

I was teaching a student the other night the 3 (or 6 count sumbrada pattern) and he was having problems with it. I then stopped the drill and led him through the application of the techniques as a drill (over and over again) and then we went back to the flow drill. He got it in a much faster format and he understood the drill better (his words not mine).

So do you teach the application of the moves first or the flow of the pattern? How did GM Remy teach it to the older students from back in the 80's.

And for what it's worth, I was never taught the pattern from GM Remy (in Modern Arnis) till after his passing. The first time I saw (other than the first tape series) the six count drill was at the 2002 Houston camp and Gabbi showed it to us. Saying that it was one of the old drills?

Last question. At what point do you start teaching the drill, what level are your students? What level was it taught by GM Remy back in the old days?

Mark Lynn

 

[arnisador]

Yes, it seemed to me that it was mostly taught in the 80s and even then it was more on-the-side than a main part of things. Other people may have a different impression.

I don't emphasize it. I tecah it whenever--the strikes/blocks aren't complicated, but a student must have certain degree of "flow" to get it down. I like to use it by teaching it stick-only first then adding the daga as I think it is a great way to bring out the idea that If you want to understand what the live hand is doing, stick a knife in it. I consider this a crucial FMA principle.

 

[Mark Lynn]

Just for grins I wonder about these things as well.

1) When you refer to the #3 is it a high #3 as in a horizontal strike to the shoulder or low as to the hip?

When I learned the patterns it was more of a #1 (diagonal to the shoulder) and instead of the #8 to the leg it was a low #3 to the hip.

The low #3 to the hip can be blocked by the drop stick or a low wing (with a checking or passing hand), and if I remember correctly range, timing, determined what was used.

2) Is there any real history behind this (these) drill(s) since they seem pretty universal and they cross over a bunch of systems. In one of the Budo International mags there was some sort of sword system that in pictures showed basically this same drill. (I know this was discussed somewhere before, I was just using this as an example of the cross over point.)

3) Do any of you throw in inserts into the drills, like low kicks, punches, thrust with the daga, locks and chokes, disarms.

4) What about mixing in the Tapi drills with the sumbrada patterns? Anyone try this?

5) Do you teach different weapon combinations for the patterns, stick vs knife, dobule stick vs double or single stick, espada y daga vs......?

FWIW I had pretty much abandoned (put off) teaching these patterns since I had asked GM Remy when I should teach his Tapi Tapi material (thinking high green or brown belt level, silly me) when he replied from the begining (meaning begining students). I figured if I taught the Tapi versions the concepts of leading the person (setting them up in the Tapi drills) would conflict with the I feed and you feed (shadow) type patterns.

Mark

 

[Mark Lynn]

Originally posted by arnisador
Yes, it seemed to me that it was mostly taught in the 80s and even then it was more on-the-side than a main part of things. Other people may have a different impression.

I don't emphasize it. I tecah it whenever--the strikes/blocks aren't complicated, but a student must have certain degree of "flow" to get it down. I like to use it by teaching it stick-only first then adding the daga as I think it is a great way to bring out the idea that If you want to understand what the live hand is doing, stick a knife in it. I consider this a crucial FMA principle.

On the side? Or were the other drills/techniques emphasized more. I guess on the side I envision when GM would take people off to the side and show them stuff (such as in the Tapi drills) here do this I want you to get this down so to speak.

I agree with the daga/live hand being a crucial FMA principle.

Mark

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by The Boar Man
On the side? Or were the other drills/techniques emphasized more.

The two times I remember doing it at camps, advanced students were off to the side doing it while beginning students were working on something else.

I don't ever remember it being taught in the main segment of a camp or seminar. I could be misremembering of course.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by lhommedieu
Thanks Rich. One question: a "flowing umbrella" to a backhand strike (last count of the "10 count") - is that the same as what some people call a "wing block," OR...are you steppng to the right and passing the strike to the left with a standard umbrella? Both work well depending on the timing.

We have a drill called "Tres-Tres," which is basically a Sumbrada done with lateral stepping (to the right or left, depending on the block and counter). I've heard that there may be similar drills in Doce Pares. Does anyone here do anything similar?

Best,

Steve Lamade

Steve,

Sorry for the delay in replying, I have been busy with work and the WMAA Mi Camp

The Flowing portion of the Umbrella is that it just flows into this motion and is also a cutting motion. So, the answer is just Umbrella. The Wing Block or Slanting Block or the horizontal block if you take it on your right side by stepping / zoming to your left.

Does this answer your question?

Best Regards
:asian:

 

[lhommedieu]

Rich,

Yes - thanks.

Interesting that many students initially assume that the umbrella is intended for forehand hits and the wing block for backhand hits. It's a nice revelation when they realize that, with proper angling and footwork, the umbrella can be used against backhands and the wing block against forehands - and the counter is often faster because the force is deflected on a similar angle instead of force to force...

Best,

Steve

 

[Black Grass]

Originally posted by The Boar Man
Just for grins I wonder about these things as well.

2) Is there any real history behind this (these) drill(s) since they seem pretty universal and they cross over a bunch of systems. In one of the Budo International mags there was some sort of sword system that in pictures showed basically this same drill. (I know this was discussed somewhere before, I was just using this as an example of the cross over point.)


Mark

Sumbrada as it is called by JKD/Kali comes from Cables Serrada. In Serrada it is free form. Guro Inosanto broke he drill down in to the various sub drills like 6 count and 10 count. Cabales was the student of Dizon (Decuerdas)who was the training partner of Antonio 'Tatang' Ilustrisimo (Kalis Ilustrisimo)who is the cousin of Floro Villabrille (Villabrille style) and teacher of the late Edgar Sulite (Lameco). Hence you will see a similar drill in these Systems.

I was told years ago (by a JKD instructor ) that the Prof. actually got 6 count from Inosanto, not in a teacher student relationship but via observation. This lead to some kind of fricton between the two, as prof did not give credit to Inosanto. Can anyone verify or discount this accusation.

Regards,
Vince
Black Grass