52 Blocks on Wing Chun Dummy

[KPM]

Here is Diallo Frazier again. He does not know Wing Chun. He is just working on an "improvised" Wing Chun dummy doing his 52 Blocks.

 

[hoshin1600]

so my question is how legit is any version of 52 blocks. if the system was created "behind the wall" of prison and taught there by convicts then to learn the system you would have had to been trained and taught by a convict or at least have that lineage. i am of the opinion that there are many who say they are teaching 52 blocks when they are really just teaching the same martial art they always new but want to sound like a tough guy and have some "street cred".

 

[geezer]

so my question is how legit is any version of 52 blocks....

How legit is any MA or MA instructor? People exaggerate their training and accomplishments, or ride on the coat-tails of a famous instructor, ...some even forge lineages and certificates! In the end guess it really boils down to what you can do, and how well you can teach it.

 

[KPM]

so my question is how legit is any version of 52 blocks. if the system was created "behind the wall" of prison and taught there by convicts then to learn the system you would have had to been trained and taught by a convict or at least have that lineage. i am of the opinion that there are many who say they are teaching 52 blocks when they are really just teaching the same martial art they always new but want to sound like a tough guy and have some "street cred".

There are different "streams" of 52, just as there are different versions of Wing Chun! Since it was never really "standardized" or "commercialized", different teachers with different influences have taught things a little differently. Lyte Burly seems to put more emphasis on a "classic" western boxing framework. Others, like Daillo Frazier almost looks like a form of Silat! Sometimes the names of the "blocks" are a little different, even though they are doing the same thing. "Skull & Crossbones" seems to be pretty standard, no matter who is teaching it. And while it has a background of development behind prison walls, that wasn't always the case. People knew it and taught it outside of prison. Lyte Burly was never in prison that I know of. Daillo Frazier talks about learning it on the streets, not behind prison walls. But regardless of who is teaching it, it always seems to have the same "look" or "flow" to it. So it is just as legit and anyone's version of Panatukan, or "Wing Chun Boxing", etc.

Lyte Burly has been working on "standardizing" his version and how he teaches it for awhile now. He refers to his version specifically as 52 A.O.D......meaning "Art of Defense."

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I have issue with the head dodging under a hook punch as shown in this clip at 0.40. This may cause by boxing is a pure fist sport that elbow strike and wrestling guillotine are not allowed.

Boxing is a 100% fist sport. WC is much more than that. For WC system to take the boxing path, it may lead WC further away from kick, punch, lock, throw, ground game integration. At least when you take the boxing path, you should know what's missing in that boxing path.

When your opponent throws a right hook, you dodge your head from your right to your left under that hook,

- his right elbow can strike horizontally on the right side of your head.
- his right arm can wrap your neck as reverse head lock (guillotine),

When you dodge your head under a hook, you should put the opposite palm on that hook punch elbow joint, push that hook punch arm away from you so that arm won't give you any trouble.

Here is a safe way to do a "head circling".

 

[hoshin1600]

I have issue with the head dodging under a hook punch as shown in this clip at 0.40. This may cause by boxing is a pure fist sport that elbow strike and wrestling guillotine are not allowed.

Boxing is a 100% fist sport. WC is much more than that. For WC system to take the boxing path, it may lead WC further away from kick, punch, lock, throw, ground game integration. At least when you take the boxing path, you should know what's missing in that boxing path.

When your opponent throws a right hook, you dodge your head from your right to your left under that hook,

- his right elbow can strike horizontally on the right side of your head.
- his right arm can wrap your neck as reverse head lock (guillotine),



When you dodge your head under a hook, you should put the opposite palm on that hook punch elbow joint, push that hook punch arm away from you so that arm won't give you any trouble.

Here is a safe way to do a "head circling".

if you are referring to the guy going under the rope, that is a standard bob & weave drill in boxing to slip a jab or maybe a hook. it works. i dont mean to criticize your clip but your attacker is not even punching at your head he is just throwing his arm out with no aim or intention. it is clear that if you did not move at all your attacker would have hit you on the side of the head with his forearm. you may find that if your attacker had a better punch with the intention of actually hitting you, your duck under may have different results then you think.

 

[punisher73]

so my question is how legit is any version of 52 blocks. if the system was created "behind the wall" of prison and taught there by convicts then to learn the system you would have had to been trained and taught by a convict or at least have that lineage. i am of the opinion that there are many who say they are teaching 52 blocks when they are really just teaching the same martial art they always new but want to sound like a tough guy and have some "street cred".

From the research I have done, there seems to be two main "camps" as to the history of 52 Blocks. When it first started to be talked about in the 90's the main person (Newsome) gave the history that 52 Blocks existed since the days of slavery and was taught in secrecy among slaves and then passed on through the years to the streets of New York etc. and no one ever knew about it. He was a Capoeira teacher and the history sounds a lot like that history of hiding the martial art in dance form. As more people talked about it, I believe the 2nd history that I heard. That it was based on street boxing and then with the influx of martial arts in the 60's/70's elements of kung fu etc. were added to the boxing and it became its own thing, which we now call "52 blocks". Like other arts with the same name and roots, there are versions of it that have come about due to personal interpretation.

I also think that there are some guys out there who are just trying to make money off of the name and mystique of it as well. I can think of some pro boxers and MMA fighters who have tried to claim or others claimed that a certain boxing move was "52 blocks". For example, Mike Tyson, Floyd Mayweather, and Rashaad Evans.

 

[KPM]

From the research I have done, there seems to be two main "camps" as to the history of 52 Blocks. When it first started to be talked about in the 90's the main person (Newsome) gave the history that 52 Blocks existed since the days of slavery and was taught in secrecy among slaves and then passed on through the years to the streets of New York etc. and no one ever knew about it.

---I have seen some short clips of what is supposed to be native martial dance from the African region that looked similar. There certainly could have been some "root" method that dated back to the days of slavery. But if so, it has been significantly altered over time!


I believe the 2nd history that I heard. That it was based on street boxing and then with the influx of martial arts in the 60's/70's elements of kung fu etc. were added to the boxing and it became its own thing, which we now call "52 blocks". Like other arts with the same name and roots, there are versions of it that have come about due to personal interpretation.

---I agree. The "street legends" repeated on Burley's DVDs and elsewhere always seem to refer back to a small handful of guys from "back in the day." So it likely was a collaborative effort, and I would bet the majority of it developed in the 70's during the "Kung Fu" craze. But they seem to emphasize that some form of early 52 Blocks was around before it was ever associated with prison.

I also think that there are some guys out there who are just trying to make money off of the name and mystique of it as well. I can think of some pro boxers and MMA fighters who have tried to claim or others claimed that a certain boxing move was "52 blocks". For example, Mike Tyson, Floyd Mayweather, and Rashaad Evans.

---Yep! Did the boxers learn things from 52 Blocks, or did 52 Blocks learn it from the boxers? Many elements of 52 Blocks have been part of boxing since way back! On one of Lyte Burly's DVDs there is a lengthy section where he and one of his teachers go through old footage of professional boxing and point out various of the 52 "Blocks". The clear implication is that 52 Blocks guys that admired the various black boxers in history took their "signature" techniques and made them part of their own fighting method. Archie Moore is one example from which "Rob the Bank" and "Cross Arm" was taken. The "Philly Shell" is a cover used by many boxers thru history, including Mayweather. And of course "Close Door" is just a standard boxing "high cover."

 

[Flying Crane]

From the research I have done, there seems to be two main "camps" as to the history of 52 Blocks. When it first started to be talked about in the 90's the main person (Newsome) gave the history that 52 Blocks existed since the days of slavery and was taught in secrecy among slaves and then passed on through the years to the streets of New York etc. and no one ever knew about it. He was a Capoeira teacher and the history sounds a lot like that history of hiding the martial art in dance form. As more people talked about it, I believe the 2nd history that I heard. That it was based on street boxing and then with the influx of martial arts in the 60's/70's elements of kung fu etc. were added to the boxing and it became its own thing, which we now call "52 blocks". Like other arts with the same name and roots, there are versions of it that have come about due to personal interpretation.

I also think that there are some guys out there who are just trying to make money off of the name and mystique of it as well. I can think of some pro boxers and MMA fighters who have tried to claim or others claimed that a certain boxing move was "52 blocks". For example, Mike Tyson, Floyd Mayweather, and Rashaad Evans.

Just a side note: it is my personal opinion that capoeira was never hidden as a dance.

African cultures often included elements of dance, music, and playfulness mixed in with work, as a way of making the labor go more quickly and easily. I believe this was also true with the African combative methods that were mixed with indigenous and European influences in Brazil, and became capoeira. Honestly, anyone seeing capoeira would be hard-pressed to mistake it for anything but the combative method that it is. And the white slave-owners and law enforcement were certainly well aware of capoeira and would not have been fooled by an attempt to hide it as a dance. They knew what it was, they knew what was going on.

 

[macher]

Hi Keith,

Admittedly I know very little of 52 Blocks, but so far, what you have shown is absolutely no different shape wise, technique wise or use wise than the Wing Chun I studied. Perhaps the Wing Chun I studied is a little different than others, but those covers can easily be found in the San Sik and forms, so I doubt it is all that different from other Wing Chun branches in that respect. What sets 52 Blocks apart from what appears to be a Wing Chun/Boxing hybrid? So far as I can tell it's about weathering a storm but avoiding the clinch. Perhaps I'm way off base here but I'm not seeing much to differentiate it from Wing Chun as I know it. Can you give a little more insight?

I think the main difference is actual application and modifying of Wing Chun. I was taught a very similar way with Bagua years ago. Most CMA schools I’ve visited don’t teach real life applications only form. And most of it any don’t spar. KPM is showing actual real application.

 

[Nobody Important]

I think the main difference is actual application and modifying of Wing Chun. I was taught a very similar way with Bagua years ago. Most CMA schools I’ve visited don’t teach real life applications only form. And most of it any don’t spar. KPM is showing actual real application.

I agree, I've seen a lot of schools that just don't teach in a manner conducive to real application. Lack of conceptual knowledge of movement, what it represents and how it can be applied. For whatever reasons, it isn't done and I've seen others that are so adherent to their dogmatic views that they won't allow for deviation or interpretation of technique. Oh well I guess, I'll just keep doing my own thing, it's served me well thus far.