shesulsa said:
The day has come where I disagree with HHJH - meh ... how sticky.
Quite allright, SS. The variance of opinion is such in life that among 6 billion of us, total accord isn't possible.
shesulsa said:
And then came the Son to clarify His message and that message was quite clear - treat everyone else the way you yourself would want to be treated, that there is room in heaven for all of God's children once they accept Him into their hearts and feel truly remorseful for being the wretched beings they are.
Understood...and while the "Golden Rule" is a wonderful code to live by, standard Christian doctrine that was hammered out for about 1,400 years following the crucifixion also calls very specifically for damnation for anyone who either doesn't accept or believe in Jesus, or who pays lip service to the faith but don't live true to its teachings.
Marcion, one of the church fathers, couldn't reconcile the OT and NT, and thus postulated that there were TWO Gods. One of the OT, one of the NT. This was deemed heresy. Scholar Bart Ehrman mentions how many contemporary Christians approach Marcionism unwittingly in refusing to recognize that THEIR God actually committed the atrocities of the Old Testament. He had a good point, and one many dogmatic Christians would agree with. Fundamentalists are often more than happy to own those atrocities.
This is an argument I've had with some of my closest friends who are liberal and Christian. While I agree that the OT laws were written to inspire fear, I can not divorce the OT and NT, just as a Fundamentalist can't. The two are glued to the same binding, and Jesus stated very clearly that he came to affirm the laws of Moses (in Matthew 5:17).
shesulsa said:
So ... before I continue, could you please cite New Testament references of Hell? And I think Revelations speak mostly of death, but ... please, offer up.
YouĀre correct on your reference to Revelations, but read on and you'll see some references from the Gospels and Epistles. I don't think Revelation ought to be excluded, so I'll list it as well. I'll list references to Hell, damnation, the lake of fire, and passages referring to "the outer darkness."
Reference the passages themselves for their author, and you'll note that Jesus himself is often the one mentioning damnation:
Revelations 1:18 I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
Revelations 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
Revelations 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Here are references from other New Testament sources:
Matthew 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Matthew 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast [it] from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not [that] thy whole body should be cast into hell.
Matthew 5:30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast [it] from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not [that] thy whole body should be cast into hell.
Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matthew11:23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Matthew 18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast [it] from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
Matthew 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
Matthew 23:33 [Ye] serpents, [ye] generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Mark 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mark 9:45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mark 9:47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
Luke 10:15 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell.
Luke 12:5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
Luke 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Acts 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
James 3:6 And the tongue [is] a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.
2 Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast [them] down to hell, and delivered [them] into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
References in the NT about the ĀLake of Fire.Ā Now we see that Hell and the lake of fire are separate, but we can still see theyĀre both places of unendurable torment, alike in that respect for what we're talking about.
Revelations 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Revelations 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Revelations 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelations 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelations 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Matthew 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Matthew 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
From Paul we have a burning in Hell reference, or burning in the lake of fire...hard to tell which...but a sad thing to hear from the man who wrote the homily of love:
1 Corinthians 7:9 But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.
Now for damnation:
Matthew 23:14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
Matthew 23:33 [Ye] serpents, [ye] generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Mark 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:
Mark 12:40 Which devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayers: these shall receive greater damnation.
Luke 20:47 Which devour widows' houses, and for a shew make long prayers: the same shall receive greater damnation.
John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Romans 3:8 And not [rather], (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.
Romans 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
1 Corinthians 11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
1 Timothy 5:12 Having damnation, because they have cast off their first faith.
2 Peter 2:3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
John the Baptist says this of Jesus:
Matthew 3:12 Whose fan [is] in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
Jesus confirms this several passages later (Matthew 13:30) in a parable.
We find this also in Luke 3:17--
Whose fan [is] in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.
Matthew 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Georgia, if I come on strong about this its because I rankle when respected writers such as C.S. Lewis, mainstream evangelicals, and people I know and break bread with all tell me that I am to burn for an eternity for my lack of faith. They tell me that students of mine who are Gay face the same torment for their "sin." They then tell me that their Lord is a God of love.
I can not seem to accept that anyone should burn for an eternity for "original sin," much less the sins of a finite life. Nor, for that matter, loving someone.
There is scripture to back it, though. I for one can't dance around it.
Regards,
Steve
