Internal Wing Chun and External Wing Chun

[Harm0nys0ul]

In your opinion what is the differences between Internal Wing Chun and External Wing Chun?
Is your Wing Chun both internal and external, is it just internal or is it just external?

 

[Xue Sheng]

My opinion is that internal and external are false categories that have more to do with a taking a pot shot at the Qing dynasty that was made by the guy that wrote the Epitaph for Wang Zhengnan in 1669 than anything else and I really would not worry about it. And this is coming from a guy who has done taijiquan for over 20 years, as well as xingyiquan and a bit of baguazhang and as well as some changquan and wing chun.

Other than that there is an old CMA saying Internal goes to external and external goes to internal. Basically train them right and you end up in the same place

So I guess I am of the opinion that you are better off training Wing Chun and not worrying about Internal vs External

 

[Vajramusti]

My opinion is that internal and external are false categories that have more to do with a taking a pot shot at the Qing dynasty that was made by the guy that wrote the Epitaph for Wang Zhengnan in 1669 than anything else and I really would not worry about it. And this is coming from a guy who has done taijiquan for over 20 years, as well as xingyiquan and a bit of baguazhang and as well as some changquan and wing chun.

Other than that there is an old CMA saying Internal goes to external and external goes to internal. Basically train them right and you end up in the same place

So I guess I am of the opinion that you are better off training Wing Chun and not worrying about Internal vs External

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Agree with Xue Shen
external/internal is a false dichotomy.

 

[Harm0nys0ul]

I wasn’t very clear, I guess that is what I get using words others defined.

If you punch are you relaxed till the impact and then tense or are you fully relaxed even at the moment of impact?
Do you tense at certain moments to block or are you fully relaxed all the time while fighting?

 

[Nabakatsu]

I can't think of many times I'm not striving for total relaxation and efficiency of movement. Maybe some brute strength alongside proper technique for some anti grappling..

 

[Vajramusti]

I wasn’t very clear, I guess that is what I get using words others defined.

If you punch are you relaxed till the impact and then tense or are you fully relaxed even at the moment of impact?
Do you tense at certain moments to block or are you fully relaxed all the time while fighting?

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One can easily over think. i.e. think too much. Punch for practice---I make sure that my body structure is stable-
the bone joints are aligned.. all unnecessary muscles are relaxed--the elbow and shoulder are sunk and for the straight punch,
I aim for the apex of the triangle with my shoulders being the other two points of the triangle.
Against an opponent I use the most efficient path to the other guys axis and fire--- I do not straighten out the elbow- so there is reserve power for penetration or redirection
and also avoiding any arm bars.... and fire my punch. My fist is relaxed with the thumb in the right place.
All the joints should click automatically into place. I punch a lot to develop my punch.I do not think about clenching-
letting the alignments take care of business.

joy chaudhuri

 

[mook jong man]

In my SLT form I try to relax.
Maintain Tei Gong , through out the form.
Visualise the energy flowing up my spine to the top of my head .
Concentrate on focusing my mental force to the centerline.

 

[geezer]

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One can easily over think. i.e. think too much. ...I punch a lot to develop my punch.I do not think about clenching-
letting the alignments take care of business.

joy chaudhuri

Some branches of WC use more strength, others emphasize relaxation more. Either way, all good WC emphasizes maximum efficiency. That is getting the most return for your input. That means finding the simplest, most direct way to accomplish your end, using structure over strength, relaxing unnecessary muscles, and not crashing force. In my experience, it's nothing mystical, just kung-fu. Skill acquired through hard work. In other words, what Joy said.

 

[mook jong man]

TST lineage places a big emphasis on relaxation and developing what he calls "Thought Force".

It really boils down to striving to do an application on an opponent with the same amount of effort and relaxation as you would use in doing the same movement from the form in the air.
The only difference is that the opponent is now in your body space , but whether he is there or not , the thought process of the Sil Lum Tao state is the same.

 

[windsorHerbalist]

Just for fun, I figure we can say that the theories are internal because you can't see them, then it becomes external as you express them in ways people can touch and feel. So if no one ever saw your wing chun, then it was internal... but as soon as someone saw or felt it, then it's external... ha ha ha.

....but hey, just practice till it's natural. Eventually you'll get to the point where if study is well rounded there's not much difference in the end result.

 

[Timmo789]

In your opinion what is the differences between Internal Wing Chun and External Wing Chun?
Is your Wing Chun both internal and external, is it just internal or is it just external?

TST lineage places a big emphasis on relaxation and developing what he calls "Thought Force".

It really boils down to striving to do an application on an opponent with the same amount of effort and relaxation as you would use in doing the same movement from the form in the air.
The only difference is that the opponent is now in your body space , but whether he is there or not , the thought process of the Sil Lum Tao state is the same.

I'm a student of the Shu Shong Tin lineage having practiced for several years under the Ip Chun lineage. It's like a totally different style really with a focus on the inner workings of the mind, rather than the physical "external" mechanisms. Here's a recent article I put on the website about it: Chu Shong Tin - Martial Arts Leeds Kung Fu - Classes in Leeds & Bradford

 

[CheukMo]

That's funny because; a) The only school I ever trained at was a Leung Sheung lineage school and for my entire time there I stood in yee gee kim yeung ma. I didn't get it because I wanted some Bruce Lee or William Cheung roof top fighting style Wing Chun. I was driving a hundred miles each way and with no explanation I quit.
And b) just before reading this thread I watched, unplanned, watched a Chu Shong Tin do Siu Lim Tao and he seemed to be the most relaxed person I had ever seen.

I apologize for poor grammar and punctuation. Haven't really used it a while. Hello all!

 

[Oily Dragon]

That's funny because; a) The only school I ever trained at was a Leung Sheung lineage school and for my entire time there I stood in yee gee kim yeung ma. I didn't get it because I wanted some Bruce Lee or William Cheung roof top fighting style Wing Chun. I was driving a hundred miles each way and with no explanation I quit.
And b) just before reading this thread I watched, unplanned, watched a Chu Shong Tin do Siu Lim Tao and he seemed to be the most relaxed person I had ever seen.

I apologize for poor grammar and punctuation. Haven't really used it a while. Hello all!

Yi Ji Kim Yeurng Ma is meant to weed people out who probably can't handle deeper methods. And to be honest a lot of Wing Chun instructors are terrible at it. The good ones will leave you standing in it for an hour while they grab a snack, and it scares or tired off some people (especially the ones who drove a long way to get there).

Sounds like it was more of a distance thing. I can relate, I once drove an hour and a half one way to work, so 3 hours a day on the road, for a job that paid I think about 30 bucks an hour.
Quit within a year. The money was ok but the drive was torture.

Kim Yeurng Ma is one of the most important development techniques in all martial arts.

Adduction. This is how you learn to crush your enemies between your thighs, dude. Ride a horse. Win BJJ medals. Stand on one leg with courage while the universe floods your life full frontal.

 

[geezer]

Yi Ji Kim Yeurng Ma is meant to weed people out who probably can't handle deeper methods. And to be honest a lot of Wing Chun instructors are terrible at it. The good ones will leave you standing in it for an hour while they grab a snack...

Adduction. This is how you learn to crush your enemies between your thighs, dude. Ride a horse. Win BJJ medals. Stand on one leg with courage while the universe floods your life full frontal.

Honestly, I never know if you are seriously joking ...or jokingly serious!

 

[Oily Dragon]

Honestly, I never know if you are seriously joking ...or jokingly serious!

Deadly serious.

I know kung fu.

 

[dream]

The more traditional lineages of wing chun retained wutang (tai chi and hsing I) and as such it is the 4th internal art. If you don’t have chi kung in BiuGee, you aren’t getting the full gungfu in my opinion, but it’s still the most practical self defense tool of all systems at level of chum kiu anyway

 

[Teapot]

The more traditional lineages of wing chun retained wutang (tai chi and hsing I) and as such it is the 4th internal art. If you don’t have chi kung in BiuGee, you aren’t getting the full gungfu in my opinion, but it’s still the most practical self defense tool of all systems at level of chum kiu anyway

Are you saying that traditional Wing Chun lineages have ties to Taijiquan and Xingyiquan? Or are you referring to the concept of Taiji and Xingyi as opposed to the martial arts?

Wing Chun is a Southern Chinese martial art - historically in very south of China.

Taijiquan and Xingyiquan are both Northern Chinese martial arts in places like Henan, Shanxi, and Hebei.

Historically speaking, I don't think there are any connections between these martial arts.

It was Sun Lutang, founder of Sun Family Taijiquan, who popularized the notion of "Internal". He learned Xingyiquan in his 20's. He learned Cheng Style Baguazhang for around 3 years in his 30's. He learned Wu (Hao) Taijiquan in his 50's.

 

[dream]

Are you saying that traditional Wing Chun lineages have ties to Taijiquan and Xingyiquan? Or are you referring to the concept of Taiji and Xingyi as opposed to the martial arts?

Wing Chun is a Southern Chinese martial art - historically in very south of China.

Taijiquan and Xingyiquan are both Northern Chinese martial arts in places like Henan, Shanxi, and Hebei.

Historically speaking, I don't think there are any connections between these martial arts.

It was Sun Lutang, founder of Sun Family Taijiquan, who popularized the notion of "Internal". He learned Xingyiquan in his 20's. He learned Cheng Style Baguazhang for around 3 years in his 30's. He learned Wu (Hao) Taijiquan in his 50's.

Perhaps it’s being sun lutang lineage that I phrased it that way. It was not my intent to confuse or mislead historically. Factually speaking I was told and read that taichichaun was fused with the shaolin wing chun, making it truly a Chan art. I was led to understand the practice of push hands was one example of tai chi influence on wing Chun .

Furthermore, I meant the latter in context in that wing chuns nei gong is only revealed at the “closed disciple” level, meaning when a sifu is passing lineage seriously , not like when dudes who “master” the art designate themselves sifus, not to sound judgmental but as a Wutang guy you know what I’m talking about with misrepresenting I’m sure? But I also meant the former, wing Chun clearly has chin na derived from tai chi besides the evolution of the push hands technique. That is why also I was told it uses the yin Yang as a symbol from the supreme ultimate fist.

again I can be wrong, but I doubt it when felt and seen in practice. That is why I consider it the 4th internal art because there is some connection, and in my may yat encounter I was told our sigung (y ip man) did study tai chi which had influence too, but that is something I really have no idea if that is true, and I am not in contact with them to ask.

so please consider me reply has both “factual information“ as well as my belief that the info is true from my applications of said practice , so i mean no offense to any lineage or any school or style. In fact it’s a compliment that they took the best of shaolin and still said, “hey those wutang guys also know some stuff we can learn to make a better gung fu” or so was the goal, and that is what we strive for , at least I do

i hope you take my 2 cents with grain of salt as saying goes

 

[Xue Sheng]

Perhaps it’s being sun lutang lineage that I phrased it that way. It was not my intent to confuse or mislead historically. Factually speaking I was told and read that taichichaun was fused with the shaolin wing chun, making it truly a Chan art. I was led to understand the practice of push hands was one example of tai chi influence on wing Chun .

Furthermore, I meant the latter in context in that wing chuns nei gong is only revealed at the “closed disciple” level, meaning when a sifu is passing lineage seriously , not like when dudes who “master” the art designate themselves sifus, not to sound judgmental but as a Wutang guy you know what I’m talking about with misrepresenting I’m sure? But I also meant the former, wing Chun clearly has chin na derived from tai chi besides the evolution of the push hands technique. That is why also I was told it uses the yin Yang as a symbol from the supreme ultimate fist.

again I can be wrong, but I doubt it when felt and seen in practice. That is why I consider it the 4th internal art because there is some connection, and in my may yat encounter I was told our sigung (y ip man) did study tai chi which had influence too, but that is something I really have no idea if that is true, and I am not in contact with them to ask.

so please consider me reply has both “factual information“ as well as my belief that the info is true from my applications of said practice , so i mean no offense to any lineage or any school or style. In fact it’s a compliment that they took the best of shaolin and still said, “hey those wutang guys also know some stuff we can learn to make a better gung fu” or so was the goal, and that is what we strive for , at least I do

i hope you take my 2 cents with grain of salt as saying goes

Sorry, I cannot except this as historically accurate

An argument can be made that there is a link between Shaolin and Chen Taijiquan.... but that does not even remotly sugest a link between Taijiquan and Wing Chun.

As for Sun Lutang, he was highly skilled, and quite knowledgeable, but even my Yang Taijiquan Shifu, who was raised and trained (by Tung Ying Chieh) in Hong Kong, did not agree with Sun Lutangs views or origin theories.

Many Chinese martial arts have thing similar to push hands, this does not in anyway mean there is a link to Taijiquan. Almost all Chinese martial arts have Qinna. This is in no way suggesting a link to Taijiquan, The Yin Yang symbol does not mean Supreme Ultimate fist, and it was not used in connection with Taijiquan for anything other than showing a balance of Yin and Yang and Yin Yang Theory applied to Taijiquan.

I would need to see some verifiable historical proof that Ip Man ever trained Taijiquan before I would take that as historical fact and then I would need to see how long he trained it if he ever did before I would believe it had much influence on Wing Chun. There are a lot of folks that claim to be students of taijiquan that really only went to a for couple of seminars.

 

[Xue Sheng]

My opinion is that internal and external are false categories that have more to do with a taking a pot shot at the Qing dynasty that was made by the guy that wrote the Epitaph for Wang Zhengnan in 1669 than anything else and I really would not worry about it. And this is coming from a guy who has done taijiquan for over 20 years, as well as xingyiquan and a bit of baguazhang and as well as some changquan and wing chun.

Other than that there is an old CMA saying Internal goes to external and external goes to internal. Basically train them right and you end up in the same place

So I guess I am of the opinion that you are better off training Wing Chun and not worrying about Internal vs External

And I still stand by my original post in this thread