Zenjael's Self-Defense Methodologies

[Zenjael]

Umm, if you are facing someone, ie the majority of times you will be taking a defensive stance, your kidneys should not be a major concern, as the BG has to get to your back side, or at minimum to your flank in order to attack them. That makes them not a top priority concern at the moment I am dropping into a stance. Now you add the variable of multiples, something that was not being discussed before. Then again, the main way to protect your kidneys is to not expose them to your opponent, which brings us back to your original description of your stance.

In Baguazhang, emphasis is placed on gaining control of the spine and back. Many moves, and rotations are designed to get behind a person, and I am certain you realize the vulnerability this poses, in any stance or style to the organs. Additionally, there are some practitioners of a skill level where you do not want them to touch you period, even lightly, because of the internal mastery they have. I know one such individual who has practiced in acujutsu for a number of years, who in one session nearly tore my bicep from the bone.

Again, I must emphasize that in this stance, one is not oriented in such a fashion that the shoulder over their back leg points diagonally, which is frankly the only posture, from a front point of view, I can picture the organ being vulnerability to counterstrike. And this position does occur often, for many people who practice TSD and perform a straight-armed ridge hand, or wild crescent kick.

can't speak for BAGUA, but definitely in judo, you do not turn your back on a knife wielding opponent without first controlling the weapon, making this point kinda moot.

I would concur this is practical sense for all. I was merely pointing out how some sweeps can turn the body to such a degree, for some circumstances. I did not name knives in this one (for example, no one would use a push technique to meet an oncoming assailant wielding a bladed or known concealable object). There is a time and place for everything, I would, like you, never turn my back to a live weapon, no matter who held it.

To be honest, I wouldn't mind a photo as the verbal description is leaving me confused. If possible, could you post a photo with an armed BG to better help me understand? I seem to be conceptually challenged this evening.

I will edit this post in about an hour to include a picture. I am uncertain as to what an armed bg is, however.

There is a BIG difference between the theory of a kick being able to break bones, and the ability to do the same. Something you seem to recognise when you suggest converting the crescent kick into a different kick to "possibly" achieve the results you desire.

I concur. I would argue a core tenant to all martial arts is for one to know oneself, and that includes ability among many other things. I would not advertise people to perform this technique. I would not advise people to condition against brick, as a starting point for hand conditioning either, but eventually, some do progress to that level.

Consider which bones are most commonly broken by a kick or a punch. The ribs, relatively lightweight bones that can't move with the force being applied to them(unlike, say an arm being struck by a crescent kick). Or the leg bones, often the shin, usually when planted and taking the full brunt of the force of a kick.

It depends on the situation. It is far easier to break a joint than a bone, given the right angle and force is applied sufficiently. However, when joints are aligned properly, they reinforce. Depending on one's posture, stance, movement speed, there are a lot of variables for the likelihood of a technique actually breaking, or working at all.

As you are such a hard hitter, how many arms have you broken with crescent kicks?

None, because I do not, and have never tried to inflict permanent damage on others. In my own opine, the perfectly mastered technique is one which is executed and the end result is with enough control that the technique may well never have occurred. I would like to be whimsically wishful in desiring that some techniques can even correct injuries, when applied in certain ways.

I recall one individual twisting his ankle improperly performing a round kick, and later a leg hold in Hapkido corrected the minor injury. Anything can happen, and I apologize for digressing. Let me stress I associate Mastery, in part, with control.

How many people do you know who have managed to do the same? How many professionals, be it full contact karate(in all its forms), kickboxing, muay thai or MMA can you point to who have done it?

When learning Krav Maga, and Muai Thai, I would say nearly everyone who had been practicing over two years. Never underestimate aggression and inertia.

Or is it like most bones broken by an opponent, a rare occurrence, a fluke? Is that what you want someone to trust their lives to? The one in a million chance that their crescent kick can actually break the bad guys arm before he slashes your leg, or you impale yourself on his blade, considering " I've found most people do not, practically, know how to defend against a knife using their arms and hands, let alone their legs." Considering that the thread is titled ...time to reconsider some techniques , perhaps you may want to re-assess yours.

The statement that some techniques exist, and are possible, does not mean they are necessary and advisable. Just as certain things are not taught to children, there is a time and place for everything. And while some pursued unorthodox means, one should not make a value judgement upon another for bringing the subject up, when the subject itself is techniques to be re-evaluated.

 

[Zenjael]

Apologies for posting a video, and the delay, I could not get the photos to post, so I just strung them up in a video divided by one second black slides.

<a href="http://youtu.be/1MJ3FJx2K3E">[video=youtube_share;1MJ3FJx2K3E]http://youtu.be/1MJ3FJx2K3E[/video]

(1st photo) This is how the stance would normally appear. I'm in a raised stance. Traditionally one sinks lower, and not have your feet splayed apart. Please ignore the splayed fingers, you would not have them spread so much, or at all, at ones digression. I will point the arm positioning. This is called lion stance, in part it appeared crouched from the front, also because the hand guarding the face curled outwards giving opponent the appearance of a claw.

(2nd Photo) I have my arms reversed. This is a stance more akin to knife-style fighting. At least from what I've trained in, though it was not fillipino.


(3rd Photo) This would be the stance, turned, as mentioned before. While not that difficult to strike, the kidney is more exposed than the heart, and neck, for example, than normally facing an opponent with shoulders aligned horizontally facing opponent. This is my own innovation, and it is one I think many have made taking krav maga, shotokan, or muai thai. Angling one's body presents less for them to damage, but it also does require a mental shifting of gears, in kind, toward what is now more necessary to protect. Against a knife, I would take the latter, turned position, but with a lower stance, and more crouch,with arms slightly tighter across, so to protect exposed vitals better.

 

[Cyriacus]

Alrighty.

Crescent Kick VS Arm.
Assuming You "Turn the crescent kick into an impact through the heel to the lower bicep".
The first issue is recoil. Upon contact, the Opponents Arm is going to move back. Unlike the Torso, it is harder to break, in that it moves.
That aside, assuming sufficient force could be generated, shattering it would be out of the question. Fracturing it is definitely plausible, but shattering would require the arm to be pressed against a solid object to prevent movement, at the very least. The turning of the arm could also make swinging the off hand into a punch very easy, and quite natural.
The second issue, is that breaking the bones in the arm, will not necessarily damage the grip. In fact, it probably wont. Additionally, the Collarbone and Shoulder and/or Hip can still be used to throw the knife back in for a stab. Adrenalin has a tendency to stop people from caring about how You just bruised Their Forearm or Bicep or Elbow. The method is unreliable as far as disarming is concerned, unless You were to strike the wrist. And thats quite a risk to take.
The third issue, is that people dont tend to present You with a knife, then stand there pointing it at You whilst You execute a Crescent Kick. People have this tendancy to not Fight, but Attack. And a Knife Attack, is very different to a Knife Fight.
The final issue, is that people dont tend to use a close-range stabbing instrument from far enough away whilst holding it out for You to Crescent Kick it. Assuming They did for some reason, sure. But its more probably for someone to Grab You first, or do it when You cant possibly expect it. And before anyone things it, no, being "Situationally Aware" isnt going to cause You to reflexively and calmly respond to some guy You couldnt have perceived as a threat until the last second. Another risk is that They may be Trained. Im pretty sure Trained Knife Fighters dont stand within headbutting range on a majority basis, and would tend to remain just out of range. Theyd probably also know how to hurt Your Leg pretty bad, just by blocking it without the Knife.

In the interests of depicting the unlikely Scenario;

In closing, if You tried to use a Crescent Kick against a lunging thrust, the guy does have His other Hand. He wont just stop because His main lunge was redirected. He will keep coming forward, and immediately have another cut incoming, or a punch, or a grapple attempt.

Conclusion: I love how theres been a discussion about whether the Arm would break, with less attention to the full dynamic of using the strike.

 

[mook jong man]

Apologies for posting a video, and the delay, I could not get the photos to post, so I just strung them up in a video divided by one second black slides.

<a href="http://youtu.be/1MJ3FJx2K3E">[video=youtube_share;1MJ3FJx2K3E]http://youtu.be/1MJ3FJx2K3E[/video]

(1st photo) This is how the stance would normally appear. I'm in a raised stance. Traditionally one sinks lower, and not have your feet splayed apart. Please ignore the splayed fingers, you would not have them spread so much, or at all, at ones digression. I will point the arm positioning. This is called lion stance, in part it appeared crouched from the front, also because the hand guarding the face curled outwards giving opponent the appearance of a claw.

(2nd Photo) I have my arms reversed. This is a stance more akin to knife-style fighting. At least from what I've trained in, though it was not fillipino.


(3rd Photo) This would be the stance, turned, as mentioned before. While not that difficult to strike, the kidney is more exposed than the heart, and neck, for example, than normally facing an opponent with shoulders aligned horizontally facing opponent. This is my own innovation, and it is one I think many have made taking krav maga, shotokan, or muai thai. Angling one's body presents less for them to damage, but it also does require a mental shifting of gears, in kind, toward what is now more necessary to protect. Against a knife, I would take the latter, turned position, but with a lower stance, and more crouch,with arms slightly tighter across, so to protect exposed vitals better.

The arm movements look a bit similar to the Garn Sau or Dy Bong movements in Wing Chun.
Whatever you do you want to keep those arms close to your body in a nice tight defensive shell.
Any hands/arms sticking out is going to be a target for slashing.

I use one arm horizontal bent at 90 degrees and the other arm braced behind it diagonally.

Angling your body forward in the last photo will present less target area to the attacker but it will also hinder your ability to move either left or right to avoid the knife thrust and still have all your weapons facing the attacker.

 

[Zenjael]

The arm rotation to switch arms is relatively effective in keep the guard from lowering for longer than perhaps a half second on the switch. The very first photo I feel has offered the greatest protection. There is a third, which incorporates in sparring which has nearly zero vulnerability as the front knee is raised to chest level and also used to ward. It's only drawback is being stuck on one foot, but balance drills allow for great dexterity in how one can maneuver one's leg. I should think of a name for it, for it's a hybrid stance of Okinawan Karate, and lion Bagua with TSD when using knife hands.

 

[Zenjael]

Reverse the kick to out to in. You'll find it much more feasible, though still inadvisable.

 

[Chris Parker]

Except it won't work in anything other than the most unlikely (lucky) of occasions. It's a movie technique, as you've been told, as the distance, timing, speed, and more just don't allow it. And the idea of targeting the wrist? Good luck in hitting it successfully against an actual thrust/slash... Really, the most likely result is that either your leg is cut for your trouble of putting it in range, or your leg is cut for the trouble of putting it in range followed by multiple stabs to your torso.

 

[MJS]

What I find interesting is....we have discussion about kicks. Some say kicks will break bones, others are saying the odds of a kick actually doing this, in the situation presented, is slim. Then we hear that doing so is not adviseable anyways. So...that said, as I said in an earlier post, there are people who teach fantasy land moves, under the assumption that they will work. It seems like if the consensus is that kicks are ill advised, why even suggest them? IMO, I'd think that gaining control vs. focusing on nothing but blocks, would be a better route to take.

As for this:

The statement that some techniques exist, and are possible, does not mean they are necessary and advisable. Just as certain things are not taught to children, there is a time and place for everything. And while some pursued unorthodox means, one should not make a value judgement upon another for bringing the subject up, when the subject itself is techniques to be re-evaluated.

It was brought up. It was shown that the idea of kicking a) is not advised against a person with a knife and b) the odds of the kicker actually breaking the bone of the badguy is slim to none. The notion that kicking is good still comes up.

 

[oaktree]

I know in the Baguazhang I practice we do not kick at someone's wrist or arm especially when they are holding a knife.
In Baguazhang you first want to move off the line of attack, then deal with the knife and attacker.

 

[Zenjael]

I suppose I must ask in this situation, out of preference which would you prefer cut, your leg, or inner vital?

Even giving it out as a sacrificial lamb, and expecting to be cut, id prefer to take supserficial damage (though obviously id prefer to not be struck at all) to allow for me to gain an opening and disarm.

^^^ This attitude is incredibly dangerous, and the gung-ho kind martial artists should avoid, I feel.

In a knife fight, a lot of traditional fighting rules get tossed right out the window. As such, practice adequately with people you know are adept with knives and individuals who are not.

I know in the Baguazhang I practice we do not kick at someone's wrist or arm especially when they are holding a knife.
In Baguazhang you first want to move off the line of attack, then deal with the knife and attacker.

N

Normally kicks would be lower traditionally, as I understand it, so it would be to disorient and throw the attacker off anyway, rather than as a combat scenario to nullify. Bagua can have a lot of setup to execute a very efficient move, but there is a lot of the time, until I am more skilled at least, where I avoid rotations and spins, especially if the combatant is armed.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I suppose I must ask in this situation, out of preference which would you prefer cut, your leg, or inner vital?

Even giving it out as a sacrificial lamb, and expecting to be cut, id prefer to take supserficial damage (though obviously id prefer to not be struck at all) to allow for me to gain an opening and disarm.

In a knife fight, a lot of traditional fighting rules get tossed right out the window.

N

Normally kicks would be lower traditionally, as I understand it, so it would be to disorient and throw the attacker off anyway, rather than as a combat scenario to nullify. Bagua can have a lot of setup to execute a very efficient move, but there is a lot of the time, until I am more skilled at least, where I avoid rotations and spins, especially if the combatant is armed.

There is no such thing as a knife fight. That's the problem. Your hypothetical solutions apply to situations which do not occur.

 

[Chris Parker]

I suppose I must ask in this situation, out of preference which would you prefer cut, your leg, or inner vital?

No, the question is "which would you prefer to be cut, your leg making escape, running, walking, and possibly standing difficult even if a major bleeder isn't hit, or nothing?". Seriously, why the hell would you give them your leg to cut, it's not like you had to....

Even giving it out as a sacrificial lamb, and expecting to be cut, id prefer to take supserficial damage (though obviously id prefer to not be struck at all) to allow for me to gain an opening and disarm.

I'm sorry, didn't you say you have some expertise with a knife? How do you manage to convince the guy with the knife to only give you superficial damage?

In a knife fight, a lot of traditional fighting rules get tossed right out the window.

How many have you been in?

And what rules?

 

[MJS]

I suppose I must ask in this situation, out of preference which would you prefer cut, your leg, or inner vital?

Even giving it out as a sacrificial lamb, and expecting to be cut, id prefer to take supserficial damage (though obviously id prefer to not be struck at all) to allow for me to gain an opening and disarm.

In a knife fight, a lot of traditional fighting rules get tossed right out the window.

N

Normally kicks would be lower traditionally, as I understand it, so it would be to disorient and throw the attacker off anyway, rather than as a combat scenario to nullify. Bagua can have a lot of setup to execute a very efficient move, but there is a lot of the time, until I am more skilled at least, where I avoid rotations and spins, especially if the combatant is armed.

Yes, its a no brainer that one will be cut. However, footwork is key and once people start kicking, thats just one more limb to risk getting cut. Why offer a limb up if you dont have to? When it comes to knife defense, I tend to deal with simple and effective, rather than fancy.

 

[Cyriacus]

Yes, its a no brainer that one will be cut. However, footwork is key and once people start kicking, thats just one more limb to risk getting cut. Why offer a limb up if you dont have to? When it comes to knife defense, I tend to deal with simple and effective, rather than fancy.

I can only hope You treat any Defense the same way

 

[Bill Mattocks]

How many have you been in?

And what rules?

Allow me...

[video=youtube_share;ozOkV9GH684]http://youtu.be/ozOkV9GH684[/video]

 

[oaktree]

Normally kicks would be lower traditionally, as I understand it, so it would be to disorient and throw the attacker off anyway, rather than as a combat scenario to nullify. Bagua can have a lot of setup to execute a very efficient move, but there is a lot of the time, until I am more skilled at least, where I avoid rotations and spins, especially if the combatant is armed.

I can not speak for every Bagua style, I have seen some kicks that go middle range to high range:

I personally do not like high or middle kicks.
Bagua to me is not so much about spins its about circular motion.
Here is Kent Howard who my teacher and Mr. Howard are aquaintances because they come from the same line. This is showing the angle I refer to when dealing with straight attack.

Here is Kent showing the Rise/Drill/fall this is also seen in Wang Shu Jin's Xingyiquan for Metal or Piquan &#21128;&#25331;

 

[Zenjael]

There is no such thing as a knife fight. That's the problem. Your hypothetical solutions apply to situations which do not occur.

Apologies for using that nomenclature. Would you prefer me to say knife, or live weapon confrontation involving knives?

The video you link is from a number of years back, when still a sophomore in high school. I am now a senior undergrad at mason, and you should compare the stylistic differences in that video, where I only use Chung Do Kwan TKD and Okinawan Karate. While a cute form, the techniques have grown and come a loooooongo way since then.

Why offer a limb up if you dont have to? When it comes to knife defense, I tend to deal with simple and effective, rather than fancy.

I concur completely. When it comes to knife combat, or any involvement of potential fatal confrontation, I would avoid fancy at all costs. When getting mugged, then is not the time to pull a 540.

Do not offer a limb when you do not have to, especially as a goad as some are want to do to initiate the other strike. But if a machete is coming toward your head, lose your arm over the fatal strike.

Oaktree, I have to gratefully thank you for posting those videos, and informing me you have martial relation to this individual. I find his ba gua is excellent, and I have enjoyed watching his other videos. They are different, in many ways from my style, as my style of Bagua is rather unorthodox.

I personally do not like high or middle kicks.

I believe most people who have practiced, or focused on an art like Bagua or Wingchun do not like high kicks as it tends to contradict the philosophy of the art. Lion Bagua, for example, has 0 high kicks, though I throw plenty of roundhouses when able due to my TKD background.

Bagua to me is not so much about spins its about circular motion.

Exactly. Spin was a poor word to use, when rotation would be a better word. I'll post a video where I will give an example of this so you can tell what I mean. I am not referring to the kind of spin one would observe in a tornado quick.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Apologies for using that nomenclature. Would you prefer me to say knife, or live weapon confrontation involving knives?

It's not the nomenclature I have an issue with.

The video you link is from a number of years back, when still a sophomore in high school. I am now a senior undergrad at mason, and you should compare the stylistic differences in that video, where I only use Chung Do Kwan TKD and Okinawan Karate. While a cute form, the techniques have grown and come a loooooongo way since then.

First, there's no such thing as "Okinawan Karate" as a ryu. I'm sorry, but whatever you were taught was not that, since it doesn't exist. I looked up your sensei; if he's the one you described, he was a well-respected 4th-dan TKD stylist active in your area. If he created something he called "Okinawan Karate" and taught it to you, that's cool and all, but really, there's no such thing.

Second, it's like saying "I was a white belt, and now I'm a green belt, so I know EVERYTHING now." You have no idea how unimpressed I am with the notion that you're a senior in college now. It must seem quite something to you, I understand. The perception of someone my age is like telling me you just took the training wheels off your bike. Good for you, but Lance Armstrong, you ain't.

 

[clfsean]

Why not give us some updated videos of your knife skills now as they have progressed according to you... and why not throw the first palm change in from your bagua as well. Then show us how they work.

 

[elder999]

Why not give us some updated videos of your knife skills now as they have progressed according to you... and why not throw the first palm change in from your bagua as well. Then show us how they work.

Meanie.:lol: