You're out here!!!

[kaizasosei]

sorry, it should read above ,

YOU'RE OUTA HERE!!! :-/


gotta rant about my most recent martial encounter... it ties into the whole subject of dealing with socially disturbed people or communication in general.

I'm with a friend of mine and we hop onto this street tram in a fairly quiet part of town. Right when we get in i see this guy sporadically moving back and forth making like he's checking tickets, a little forcefull and rediculous nevertheless. Since he was still appearing to be in good spirits and his buddy sitting down who was much older than the guy in his twenties/thirties, i thought i'd make some conversation and see what they were all about. I approached and asked the guy if was interested in purchasing one of the ticketstamping machines...i then proceeded to explain how the ticket stamping machines comes with a serial number that proves its authenticity and explained some of the basic features of the machine... OK, i do it in such friendly yet comical way and then he asks 'How much?' I make some funny faces move side of side a bit(then he coppies me)-right before i can press out 'fifty, he says 'fivehundred? ' overlapping what i said and feeling weird...i told him. 'For you, fifty' Then he says, 'problem is we're homeless so we don't have enough cash' he turns to his buddy who looks a little messed up with skin in bad condition and half of his ear missing. Then he looks at me and asks me for money. I continue the joke and tell him that i am just a businessman trying to sell my product.

NOW, he starts getting mad, ordering me to give him cash, turns to his buddy and asks him 'how much should he give us?' the guy replies 'two roz' looking at the ground(dickhead'). Then the guy tells me, either i give him 5 roz or i have to get off at the next stop. -

The friend of mine, meanwhile is strategically positioned away from the entire thing not wanting to get involved, or trusting me?? -

- i don't intend to get off at the next stop and i tell him i'm not getting off. Then i order him to be nice to all people and tell him that his behaviour is unacceptable- that it is no way to treat a person and that i was only joking around with him like his buddy had also told other people when i first saw the two. 'you get off.., i say'

OK, stop comes and he is getting more furious, coming towards me and grabing my arm/sleeve. I sortof have this aggressive explosion of a step almost like a judo tripping sumiotoshi..this was not only out of aggresion, but to get my back away from his friend just in case. When i got to the other side, actually glad that the guy had not lost his balance and have to go down and probably choke....., i stood on other side and he grabs my left sleeve again. Then i slowly telegraph everthing just right make sure to get his arm and pull a nikkyo wrist lock-hongyaku(real fast, real forceful turning back), and he is there with his pinky up but not going down so fast so i put a bit of pressure, using energy forcing him down, and walk into him a him and then pulled a perfect tenkan sending his *** straight floor, facedown. Then i put my leg over the arm and kneeled on him a bit completely relaxing.... people are complaining now about the initial scuffle and the driver stops the tram and comes forward, i make like a tree and quietly swiftly return to where my friend was at.

The guy exclaims ' he doesn't have a ticket!' (meaning me) - the driver says 'well then that's his problem.' i remained silent the whole time but tons of other people started defending my position and laughing the guy off and when the driver said he was going to call the police, the guy bailed, even without his buddy who stayed behind. I also stayed there as i quickly realized that it was more of a threat and furthermore i'd like to think i have nothing to hide from the cops although such sort of contact would be rather undesirable.

Point is that i having been friendly the whole time, many people in the train stood against that dude because of his unjustified aggression and ludicrous statements. -like saying he's a checker. - everyone laughed when he said that.

my nikkyo was absolutely spanking beautiful...never stop a nikkyo when the guy goes down on his knees, always enter a bit and finish it with an elegant tenkan to restrain in some way on ground. One of the strongest ways is to keep the nikkyo grip and firmly press e elbow to ground. But i just knelt on him a bit shook him with some powerfully simulated aggression vibrations and then said something to him and let him go. He stayed the **** back after that.

What to do with the messed up people...try aikido. Because hitting them would not really help and should be avoided if possible. Even acting all tough, he totally yelped when the pressure came on and he was trying to resist... sorry bastard

but i bet that dude is definately eligebile for being a kid robber, for example. Even though, both those guys were obviously troubled characters.



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[Flea]

This is precisely what I was getting at with my "What do you do with crazy" thread, now mercifully deleted. The ethics of SD against someone who doesn't fully understand what's going on. I thank you for bringing this up as it gives me a chance to reframe my own thread as I meant it to read the first time.

Right when we get in i see this guy sporadically moving back and forth making like he's checking tickets, a little forcefull and rediculous nevertheless.

This is where the story should have ended. You saw someone whose behavior was erratic and you recognized it as such.

Since he was still appearing to be in good spirits

In other words, it ain't broke so don't fix it. He was minding his own business. If he were belligerent and harassing people I could see the temptation to get involved, but even then it would be the driver's responsibility. Not yours.

my nikkyo was absolutely spanking beautiful

It may be spanking beautiful, and I congratulate you on your dedication to your craft. But under the circumstances I find this statement repulsive. You went out of your way to create a confrontation with someone who was basically helpless and you deliberately resorted to violence to resolve it. Without approaching him in the first place he probably wouldn't have even noticed you. And it sounds like your response was completely overboard. He grabbed your sleeve, fer cryin' out loud.

You need to educate yourself about mental illness. I would suggest starting with this study:

More than one-fourth of persons with severe mental illness are victims of violent crime in the course of a year, a rate 11 times higher than that of the general population, according to a study by researchers at Northwestern University.

I hate to be harsh with you, but you went way out of your way to create a completely unnecessary situation. You bullied him, plain and simple. If I were the driver I would have called the police rather than kicking anyone off. I find it troubling that other passengers sided with you; it shows a tremendous lack of compassion. Your friend did exactly the right thing from removing himself from the situation, and he may well have been embarrassed at your conduct too.

What to do with the messed up people...try aikido. Because hitting them would not really help

Completely missing the point. I hope you learn something from this interaction, something with a spiritual component like humility or compassion. Until then, try walking or taking a cab.

 

[kaizasosei]

I told him, 'i was only nice to you!'

I never imagined anything physical happening. Actually, people were being annoyed by him. I did not act aggressive with him at all untill he started trying to get me off the train.
He didn't just grab my sleeve but he was shouting at me and trying to push me out the open door.
I'm proud of how i handled the situation. I couldn't do better in a train. If it were outside, i might have had the chance to talk to the guy more, tie him up, use him as a pillow and tell him all about my life. jk

But he started 'the fight'...if not me, someone else get pushed around or he himself get his *** kicked so bad by others. His attitude, behaviour and threat level waranted striking him..- but i didn't even think of it. I really just wanted to see what was in there? Honestly, i have many more experiences with fights...it's just the insanity that i'm trying to learn more about. I was so nice to the guy i almost sounded like a woman or child. Why do you think he rose up against me? I never meant for it, but possibly his thinking told him that i wanted money from him that he doesn't have..

whatever the case, his aggression was not appropriate and dangerously random..but he didn't get hurt at all, and maybe some of what i said hit home. His thinking definately has shown me more about how dangerous a situation can get in no time, for no logical reason. Perhaps i should have given him the cash...but the reason to talk to him was to give him a chance to communicate soundly and amicably. I suppose, in some way, he was more messed up than i thought.

I also think people here lack compassion. They seem to really not like anyone making ludicrous statements and lying. Almost as though, they are crazy themselves for taking the nonsense serious. I just didn't want any problem as my i believed in my actions, and i didn't think it necessary to call the police.

Just thought i'd post because it really is exactly such an issue as was previously discussed. This is the first time one of the many many people on the fringe of society that i have talked to or given attention to, has risen up against me physically(i only got scratched once when i returned a homeless mans umbrella to him-i wondered about it but took no offence.


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[Bruno@MT]

This[/I] is where the story should have ended. You saw someone whose behavior was erratic and you recognized it as such.

I agree with you here. If you see someone behaving erratically, leave them alone as long as they behave.

It may be spanking beautiful, and I congratulate you on your dedication to your craft. But under the circumstances I find this statement repulsive. You went out of your way to create a confrontation with someone who was basically helpless and you deliberately resorted to violence to resolve it. Without approaching him in the first place he probably wouldn't have even noticed you. And it sounds like your response was completely overboard. He grabbed your sleeve, fer cryin' out loud.

With this I disagree.
You are right that the encounter could have been avoided, or at least not initiated by the OP.

However, if someone grabs my sleeve and tries to force me somewhere, whether he is mentally ill or not does not make a difference. I am not letting myself be manhandled. It is just too dangerous. He may be mentally ill, but that does not mean that he is unarmed. For all the OP knew, he could have been armed and just waiting to corner the OP and then pull the knife. Especially after the 'you have to give me money' threat / statement and the fact that he was not alone in that.

Mental illness does not mean that a person is harmless, nor does it give them the right to grab someone or their clothes. If anything, the OP did not hit the other guy, nor did he break any bones, nor did he slam him into the ground. So imo, that was a very reasonable response to a physical threat. The other guy walked (ran) away unharmed.

The OP should have known better than to have fun with someone acting irrationally, but the other guy shouldn't have made threats or taken it to a physical level.

 

[kaizasosei]

Several times, i truly suspected that he was feigning the madness...? Meeting me, he probably thought he found a real wacko!! On the other hand, he'd have to be really sly and devious or plain dumb or mad to say that he is a ticket controller to the driver himself who is more than capable of identifying a real checker.

As soon as i perceived a threat i watched his hands, watched for incoming strikes and moved away from his buddy. Yeah, he could have been armed. I'm thinking he thinks he is or acts as though he is a controller, a simpleton and a criminal all in one package.- Isn't it wild..




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[Bruno@MT]

I never imagined anything physical happening.
<snip>
I really just wanted to see what was in there? Honestly, i have many more experiences with fights...it's just the insanity that i'm trying to learn more about.
<snip>
I never meant for it, but possibly his thinking told him that i wanted money from him that he doesn't have..
<snip>
the reason to talk to him was to give him a chance to communicate soundly and amicably. I suppose, in some way, he was more messed up than i thought.
<snip>
This is the first time one of the many many people on the fringe of society that i have talked to or given attention to, has risen up against me physically
<snip>
(i only got scratched once when i returned a homeless mans umbrella to him-i wondered about it but took no offence.

I don't disagree with your reaction when it got pyhsical, yet from the above statements, I have the impression that you like playing with fire.
If people act irrational, they are acting irrational. Did you think you could have a bit of harmless fun with someone like that? Or that he would have an amicable chat with you, or that he would act rationally because you were being nice?

What you are doing is equivalent to seeing a strange machine, and then pushing buttons just to see what happens. While this may be interesting and you like to satisfy your curiosity, this can also end fatally. In this case it didn't, but if his friend had become violent or he'd have a knife you didn't see until too late, you could have been hurt really bad for no good reason.

You have won the confrontation, but it was an unnecessary risk that could have been avoided.

 

[kaizasosei]

I admit i'm sortof still learning about some buttons, but it's not a strange machine to me, it's a hurt person. If i get my *** kicked or stabbed or jailed, so be it. I believe that madness can in many instances be healed or improved through fair communication.

Thankyou anyways for your concern. People will tell you that there is danger here and danger there....for the most part it is logic.
Not living as the guard of an embassy or a soldier of sorts that follows orders, but question? would you turn away one thousand hurt and needy people because of the one dangerous one called destiny that will get you anyhow, no matter where you hide or run to.

For me it is clear that morals are like orders from heaven..follow the orders and heaven will protect you-

sorry for all these weird analogies but, do you think you can controll god or win his favour if you can't even outsmart the devil?? i mean, i for one find it honourable if someone is courageous enough to go into a foggy situation, i also think it is dispicable for people to shun socially challenged people and ostracize them by treating them like the plague.




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[celtic_crippler]

Why did you insert yourself into the situation?

Maybe I missed it, but was he hurting somebody on the train? What was it about the situation that made you feel you had to intervene?

 

[kaizasosei]

It was weird...i picked up on it so briefly that i'm not even sure myself. Probably having someone there, my friend, although in the background made me think that i would be able to pull it off, as i could always fall back and be seen talking to someone that knows me in his right mind.

I was in a goofy mood. The guy exuded this kind of comic nature. Like a commedian, yet it seemed that he was truly extorting money out of people as he just had been sortof being nasty with this lady and her daughter.

I have come to always question the intentions and ulterior motives of the actions of peoples and the spirits that move them. Seeing him invade so many people's space in such a laughable yet dubious way, made me want to do the same to him and see how he takes it. Thing is i did it without being forcefull or mean at all, i simply got his attention i tried to joke around with him as see what happens...so it means either he is so troubled that he really believed that i could sell him the ticketstamper(wtf!?) , or he was selectively going along with the fantasy and chose to react violently when he did not get what he wanted- 5 euros. This borders on robbery. I am over six feet and not someone so easily approachable, i am certain that this character will try to get cash out of the weaker. I do think though that he must be one sorry indidvidual to be pulling such stupid moves for some few euros...should have given it to him, but i didn't think of it, had no desire to at the time, and frankly i'm in no position.

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[grydth]

I have no sympathy for anyone trying to shake down or harass the public, and I am happy you prevailed. But you could have avoided this encounter, and it could have ended badly for you.

You will perhaps learn that there are no winners in a fight that should not happen.

 

[Tames D]

I agree that you shouldn't have gotten involved in this. Messin around and playing games can backfire on us. If it's not a threatening self defense situation, we're better off staying out of it.

And you can't always undo the damage. I learned the hard way a while back with an out of control demo my buddy and I put on for some cub scouts and parents. As a result of it, I have 2 lawsuits against me, lost some friends and my wife. All because I was messin around and playing games. So, you gotta be careful out there dude.

 

[kaizasosei]

I'll take it to heart, and actually, i just recently got into a scuffle with a newly acquainted friend-only verbal- and it caused major upheaval in my relationship. It's always hard, but i believe that in the end, the truth with sortof quietly emerge out of waters of time and then all would feel exactly how good or bad any thing or person is or ever was.

So i am trying to reevaluate if i can't come up with more gentle techniques to avoid such problems. But with the guy i mentioned above, i was honestly shocked when he started threatening me and couldn't believe that he had the guts to start such madness in a tram. I guess he thought he'd bully me out of the train and be even cooler and more badass, or something. I was still talking to him and he tells me money or you have to get out...geez, that is some serious power problem for someone that is not even a real official.
I wonder what other demands he could make, just out of the blue.




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[Flea]

I'm still not impressed.

You seem to have changed your story a little bit here; in your OP you say that "he appeared to be in good spirits" and later you say that "he just had been sortof being nasty with this lady and her daughter." So I can't help but be a little suspicious of your motives in posting this story (and engaging in the original situation.) In the former case you had no reason to get involved. In the latter, it would have been solely the driver's responsibility. Again, you went out your way to manufacture the confrontation. What's to gain here beyond inflating your ego?

But with the guy i mentioned above, i was honestly shocked when he started threatening me

* grunt *

Apply some common sense. You see someone behaving erratically in public, clearly out of touch with our prevailing reality. He inhabited some other reality at that moment, and you had no way of knowing what the rules were his his world. In other words, regardless of your intentions, you were a stranger forcing your way into a strange land. He was right to be a little guarded, especially since (according to your first story) he wasn't harming anyone.

Again, it's time for you to educate yourself. Learn about mental illness, and apparently about MA ethics too.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Why did you insert yourself into the situation?

Maybe I missed it, but was he hurting somebody on the train? What was it about the situation that made you feel you had to intervene?

I'm with you. The whole thing reminds me of that gruesome video of the man who 'was taught kata by Jesus Christ' and some sensei decided to 'teach him a lesson' by having his head BB work him over.

There are crazy people in the world. I don't care for them and try to keep my distance. If attacked, I'll defend myself. But if I can simply move away from them or ignore them and they're not hurting anyone, I will.

There are also people in the world who seem to get their kicks from messing with people who are not 'all there'. I find that aspect of bullying particularly cowardly. I do not know if the OP is one of those, but that's kind of how this story comes off.

 

[kaizasosei]

The situation was handled well in my opinion. Whether or not i should have gotten involved. I don't know. I can see if your opinion if i had had the ulterior motive of trying out martial arts moves..but really it was the furtherst from my mind. I figured it would stay verbal. He wasn't outright nasty to the two ladies as i didn't really see the whole interaction, i just saw him comically turning away, heard the voice, and their faces looked somewhat shocked...so i thought i would try to be nice and maybe everyone could kick back a bit and get along better.

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[girlbug2]

Sleeve grabbing is the precursor to further violence. From that point on, you handled the situation correctly. Prior to that however, I don't know.

 

[myusername]

It appears from your story and your posts that followed that you are going to get yourself hurt one day unless you change your approach to situations like this one.

I highly recommend for you Geoff Thompson's "The Art of Fighting without Fighting", he actually gives this away free as an e-book if you sign up to his newsletter. Here is the link http://www.geoffthompson.com/newsletter/Joinnewsletter.asp

I also recommend that you buy and read "Dead or Alive" by the same author.