Your Rights Online: London Police Seek To Install CCTV In Pubs

[Tez3]

Ah, good point. Although, having studied the DPA (1998) a fair bit, a recent ACPOS report concluded that somewhere in the region of 90% of all CCTV cameras nationwide, did not comply with the DPA. I think they have a use, but especially with this govt that couldn't look after a box of Maltesers, I have a few issues with that.[/quote

Problem is too that people want the police do 'do something' about crime but aren't willing to do anything themselves. If you watch any CCTV of what happens at nights in our towns and cities with hundreds of drunks ( or worse actually be there) it's hard to know how to police these situations without CCTV.
I would disagree with the fact the government can't look after anything....they are doing very well for themselves and their allowances!!

 

[Hagakure]

Ah, good point. Although, having studied the DPA (1998) a fair bit, a recent ACPOS report concluded that somewhere in the region of 90% of all CCTV cameras nationwide, did not comply with the DPA. I think they have a use, but especially with this govt that couldn't look after a box of Maltesers, I have a few issues with that.[/quote

Problem is too that people want the police do 'do something' about crime but aren't willing to do anything themselves. If you watch any CCTV of what happens at nights in our towns and cities with hundreds of drunks ( or worse actually be there) it's hard to know how to police these situations without CCTV.
I would disagree with the fact the government can't look after anything....they are doing very well for themselves and their allowances!!

Atta girl.

I agree that the Police would find it perhaps harder to do their job in a busy town centre, but rather than increase cameras, or even remove them, I'd be more inclined to chance the culture that prevails for them to be needed on this scale. Hard to do, some may say impossible, or improbable.

 

[Tez3]

Atta girl.

I agree that the Police would find it perhaps harder to do their job in a busy town centre, but rather than increase cameras, or even remove them, I'd be more inclined to chance the culture that prevails for them to be needed on this scale. Hard to do, some may say impossible, or improbable.[/quote]


That's true but we seem to be stuck in this lad and ladette culture of binge drinking. They thought longer drinking hours would help lol!
What woud help the police immediately though would be to get rid of 'targets' and paperwork! this would give more time to real policing.

 

[FieldDiscipline]

What woud help the police immediately though would be to get rid of 'targets' and paperwork! this would give more time to real policing.

That would be good, wouldn't it?! The whole idea of targets for the police is just abhorrent. Cheers Tony.

 

[Hagakure]

Atta girl.

I agree that the Police would find it perhaps harder to do their job in a busy town centre, but rather than increase cameras, or even remove them, I'd be more inclined to chance the culture that prevails for them to be needed on this scale. Hard to do, some may say impossible, or improbable.[/quote]


That's true but we seem to be stuck in this lad and ladette culture of binge drinking. They thought longer drinking hours would help lol!
What woud help the police immediately though would be to get rid of 'targets' and paperwork! this would give more time to real policing.

We do indeed. I don't think it's an overnight cure either. I agree with letting ones hair down, just don't understand why it can only be done whilst getting blind drunk, and possibly violent. I wonder, does the US and Canada, Aus etc have a binge drink culture? In other words, is it an Anglo Saxon thing or what?

It doesn't seem to the same on the continent. They seem to have this relaxed ability to drink copious amounts of wine and lager, and then casually saunter home. A cafe culture we sadly lack here in the UK.

As for targets, I cannot believe the extent of the spread of target culture under Labour. Breath takingly stupid. Having an idea of performance, and measuring that performance is one thing, but targets for the police, and also for schools and hospitals is just.... silly. Off on a tangent, it narks me that schools are forced into targets culture, effectively setting schools off against each other, then Labour come in and say that all schools are of an equal standard? How can that be if the targets that they created and imposed have the complete opposite affect! Grrrrr!!! Govt has a LOT to answer for.

 

[Tez3]

You know theres targets for targets?
Paperwork is a nightmare, one arrest has an officer sat at a computer for hours filling in forms, one stop and search on the street will take half an hour filling in forms if the person being searched is sober and co-operative, imagine if its a druggie or drunk or just plain awkward.

Our government doesn't want power nor does it want us all compliant a la 1984, it wants it's allowances and us doing paperwork ( though we aren't as bad as France lol) it doesn't care what we do really as long as we don't bother them!!

 

[Sandstorm]

You know theres targets for targets?
Paperwork is a nightmare, one arrest has an officer sat at a computer for hours filling in forms, one stop and search on the street will take half an hour filling in forms if the person being searched is sober and co-operative, imagine if its a druggie or drunk or just plain awkward.

Brings me to when I worked the clubs of Oxford. The police were often called to certain venues after a ruckuss or a glassing or whatnot. If the persons involved were not interested in pursuing charges, the police just sent everyone on there way to avoid the paperwork. This surprised me when I first started doing the job, so I asked one of the TVP officers what the deal was. He said that due to Oxford being a major tourist destination and the respect that comes with being the biggest University City in the world, they were 'required' to tone down the number of crimes committed in the city so as not to put off foreign and nationals from wanting to study there. The only thing they do keep a high profile on is the number of stolen bicycles per year, apparently to encourage students to use the bus system rather that pedal power. LOL

The police have a hard time, real hard time. I have friends who left the door job to work in the Met and the TVP, and they have all said that they would much rather do the door work than policing. Doesn't surprise me in the least.

 

[Tez3]

Brings me to when I worked the clubs of Oxford. The police were often called to certain venues after a ruckuss or a glassing or whatnot. If the persons involved were not interested in pursuing charges, the police just sent everyone on there way to avoid the paperwork. This surprised me when I first started doing the job, so I asked one of the TVP officers what the deal was. He said that due to Oxford being a major tourist destination and the respect that comes with being the biggest University City in the world, they were 'required' to tone down the number of crimes committed in the city so as not to put off foreign and nationals from wanting to study there. The only thing they do keep a high profile on is the number of stolen bicycles per year, apparently to encourage students to use the bus system rather that pedal power. LOL

The police have a hard time, real hard time. I have friends who left the door job to work in the Met and the TVP, and they have all said that they would much rather do the door work than policing. Doesn't surprise me in the least.

Exactly, if the police arrested someone at the beginning of the evening those officers would be off the streets for hours processing the prisoner, they'd be unable to deal with any other crime and they'd be leaving their colleagues short handed at kicking out time.

Wouldn't Oxford grind to a halt if all the bikes went awol lol?

 

[Hagakure]

Exactly, if the police arrested someone at the beginning of the evening those officers would be off the streets for hours processing the prisoner, they'd be unable to deal with any other crime and they'd be leaving their colleagues short handed at kicking out time.

Wouldn't Oxford grind to a halt if all the bikes went awol lol?

What a sad, sad indictment of our times eh. Why, oh why, oh why can the law not be changed to support the Police/law abiding populace of the country? Why on Earth, do the bureaucrats have to have so much power to effectively cripple the Police, with paperwork? Makes me sick, it really does.

 

[Tez3]

What a sad, sad indictment of our times eh. Why, oh why, oh why can the law not be changed to support the Police/law abiding populace of the country? Why on Earth, do the bureaucrats have to have so much power to effectively cripple the Police, with paperwork? Makes me sick, it really does.

To be honest it starts with the media, certain tabloids make a massive fuss about crime because it's an easy subject to cover, people are always worried about crime so theres calls for the government to act, people read the stuff and start getting frightened, they think there's more crime than there really is. The politicians in power start panicking and bring in new measures which they think will bring the crime down ( bearing in mind theres not as much as you think), the opposition politicians jump on the bandwagon because crime is a 'crowd pleaser', you can never go wrong saying you'll get crime down.

Then we have people campaigning against the police, so we have to have paperwork to prove that the police are equal opportunity arresters.

The perception here is that we have a great deal of violent crime but the simply fact is we don't, we have problems with the drinking culture and the gangs, all of these make the headlines. The truth is that if you are a young man then yes you are at more risk of being the target of a violent attack but the rest of the population is unlikely in their lifetime to be a victim or even see any form of violence. Most murders are still committed by someone known to the victim, most assaults happen due to alcohol.

The biggest thing to worry about here is the 'respectable' citizen speeding in his car in bad road conditions and also drink driving. Rather than calling on UK citizens to be armed for their safety when they would rarely if ever need a weapon I'd rather we cut the hundreds of deaths (more than murders, we have whole families wiped out by drunks) every year caused by drunk drivers. These deaths were totally preventable and are tragic beyond belief.

 

[Hagakure]

The perception here is that we have a great deal of violent crime but the simply fact is we don't, we have problems with the drinking culture and the gangs, all of these make the headlines. The truth is that if you are a young man then yes you are at more risk of being the target of a violent attack but the rest of the population is unlikely in their lifetime to be a victim or even see any form of violence. Most murders are still committed by someone known to the victim, most assaults happen due to alcohol.

Hmmm, that's the only part where I'd take issue. I witnessed a LOT of violent crime in our old house. We lived in a local council estate, which was hell on Earth. I witnessed two violent assaults in 6 months, completely random, possibly racially motivated, but they happened. When combined with the local scum kids throwing stones and our house (more specifically the windows) which while Jayne was pregnant shot our nerves to pieces, our front wall was smashed in, and eventually the window was put through. This went on for around 18 months, and we weren't alone. We tried talking to others to get a fix, but they weren't interested, they were more concerned with not drawing any more attention to themselves.

We rang the Police, and I have to be honest, they did nothing. They gave us a crime number for the window, but it wasn't on their list of priorities. I rang the Police when I witnessed those violent assaults. I even gave them accurate descriptions as I was no more than 40-50 feet away. I even gave the Police the direction these guys were heading, and, having seen them previously, I actually knew where they lived. I gave them that information. This assault took place on a bus that had pulled up at a bus stop, 6 or 7 young black males, attacked a white male with his partner. The lady I spoke to was so disinterested I lost a little faith there and then. Didn't hear or see any Police cars head to the last known location even when it was given to them. So if gang assaults in residential areas isn't a priority, and the safety and sanity from the local yob scum kids wasn't a priority, it's hard to know what is deemed to be? I don't envy coppers one bit, and I don't say this out of malice, but rather out of feeling very, very let down and isolated as a tax payer, and UK citizen. When I said over the phone one day, after 18 months or so of the ***** we'd taken from these kids that I was gonna grab one of them and teach him the error of his ways, I was instantly told that I would be arrested for doing so. Great. So the Police won't come and protect you, and we can't do it ourselves. At one point, I was asked if I knew their names and where they lived, I had to point out that I wasn't in the habit of hanging out with 11 or 12 year old boys.

So, I'm afraid that I have very little time for the Police based upon mine and my family's direct experience over the last 2 or 3 years, and their total and utter inability to protect us. I have the utmost of respect for the individual that chooses to put on the uniform. However, the senior managers, politicians, and legal advisors that conspire to water down and remove the protection of the law abiding sicken me.

 

[Tez3]

Hmmm, that's the only part where I'd take issue. I witnessed a LOT of violent crime in our old house. We lived in a local council estate, which was hell on Earth. I witnessed two violent assaults in 6 months, completely random, possibly racially motivated, but they happened. When combined with the local scum kids throwing stones and our house (more specifically the windows) which while Jayne was pregnant shot our nerves to pieces, our front wall was smashed in, and eventually the window was put through. This went on for around 18 months, and we weren't alone. We tried talking to others to get a fix, but they weren't interested, they were more concerned with not drawing any more attention to themselves.

We rang the Police, and I have to be honest, they did nothing. They gave us a crime number for the window, but it wasn't on their list of priorities. I rang the Police when I witnessed those violent assaults. I even gave them accurate descriptions as I was no more than 40-50 feet away. I even gave the Police the direction these guys were heading, and, having seen them previously, I actually knew where they lived. I gave them that information. This assault took place on a bus that had pulled up at a bus stop, 6 or 7 young black males, attacked a white male with his partner. The lady I spoke to was so disinterested I lost a little faith there and then. Didn't hear or see any Police cars head to the last known location even when it was given to them. So if gang assaults in residential areas isn't a priority, and the safety and sanity from the local yob scum kids wasn't a priority, it's hard to know what is deemed to be? I don't envy coppers one bit, and I don't say this out of malice, but rather out of feeling very, very let down and isolated as a tax payer, and UK citizen. When I said over the phone one day, after 18 months or so of the ***** we'd taken from these kids that I was gonna grab one of them and teach him the error of his ways, I was instantly told that I would be arrested for doing so. Great. So the Police won't come and protect you, and we can't do it ourselves. At one point, I was asked if I knew their names and where they lived, I had to point out that I wasn't in the habit of hanging out with 11 or 12 year old boys.

So, I'm afraid that I have very little time for the Police based upon mine and my family's direct experience over the last 2 or 3 years, and their total and utter inability to protect us. I have the utmost of respect for the individual that chooses to put on the uniform. However, the senior managers, politicians, and legal advisors that conspire to water down and remove the protection of the law abiding sicken me.

As I said though, we have a gang problem and certain areas have it worse than others. As a whole of the country we don't have armed robbers on every corner, rapists waiting in every alley, muggers under every lamp post which is what they want you to believe and because we didn't have it in the first place they are claimed they have got rid of it.

What you have problems with is also a nasty social problem where parents aren't controlling their children, the schools are useless at teaching and the politicians are scared to act. The police sadly are also powerless to act when it comes to children, they are underage and theres little legislation that makes it possible to prosecute the parents not that i think the parents care.
What I'd suggest is if you can get together like minded people to yourself and make a residents commitee and lobby the council until they are sick of you, to do something about the anti social behaviour. They can bring in professional witnesses to record all the anti social behavior, you can also video and set up CCTV cameras yourselves to record everything. The council should be made to act, take the problem families to court and evict and bring in ASBOs that forbid the trouble makers access to the areas. Get a neighbourhood watch going, lobby the police for more patrols and CSOS to come round. Use your local media as well, if there's no facilities for kids they can campaign for them. I know it seems as if you are setting yourself up as a target, thats why the council can bring the witnesses in. Work with the council if you can to get street wardens in, residents work parties to clean up the areas, cut down areas of bushes etc which can be used by youths, gate other areas that can be used as rat runs by kids. I know it seems as if too that you are doing the jobs others should be but frankly the only way forward is to help yourself.

One of the problems is that as you've said is that the attackers were balck, that sets of huge alarms with the politicians, they don't want to be seen to be racist so it goes back to targets again, how many non whites arrested as opposed to whites. the non white list can't be higher than the white list...it wouldn't be anyway tbh but the figures have to read what they want.

 

[Hagakure]

As I said though, we have a gang problem and certain areas have it worse than others. As a whole of the country we don't have armed robbers on every corner, rapists waiting in every alley, muggers under every lamp post which is what they want you to believe and because we didn't have it in the first place they are claimed they have got rid of it.

What you have problems with is also a nasty social problem where parents aren't controlling their children, the schools are useless at teaching and the politicians are scared to act. The police sadly are also powerless to act when it comes to children, they are underage and theres little legislation that makes it possible to prosecute the parents not that i think the parents care.
What I'd suggest is if you can get together like minded people to yourself and make a residents commitee and lobby the council until they are sick of you, to do something about the anti social behaviour. They can bring in professional witnesses to record all the anti social behavior, you can also video and set up CCTV cameras yourselves to record everything. The council should be made to act, take the problem families to court and evict and bring in ASBOs that forbid the trouble makers access to the areas. Get a neighbourhood watch going, lobby the police for more patrols and CSOS to come round. Use your local media as well, if there's no facilities for kids they can campaign for them. I know it seems as if you are setting yourself up as a target, thats why the council can bring the witnesses in. Work with the council if you can to get street wardens in, residents work parties to clean up the areas, cut down areas of bushes etc which can be used by youths, gate other areas that can be used as rat runs by kids. I know it seems as if too that you are doing the jobs others should be but frankly the only way forward is to help yourself.

One of the problems is that as you've said is that the attackers were balck, that sets of huge alarms with the politicians, they don't want to be seen to be racist so it goes back to targets again, how many non whites arrested as opposed to whites. the non white list can't be higher than the white list...it wouldn't be anyway tbh but the figures have to read what they want.

Funny you should say that mate. We did act ourselves. Eventually, my step daughter, who was at school with some of these thugs, knew the lads in question. So, one day, I went out equipped with said baseball bat, before our very, very hard neighbour stopped me. He had a soft spot for my wife, and I wasn't about to refuse his assistance. We had the names and addresses of these kids, turns out they lived no more than 400 yards away. Jumped in my car, and we drove round the corner. Immediately, he leapt out, and very succintly explained to the "adults" slouching outside their "homes" that for their "children" to continue in their ways may lead to a random firebombing of their house at a most unacceptable hour of the morning and/or a kidnapping of prior mentioned children and horrible things done to them. Given that this man had fought most, if not all of the drongos/druggies in front of him, and, given them all a sound thrashing, there were no dissenting voices. And just like that, the problems stopped. Vigilantism oughtn't be condoned, but a watered down version of it in this case, worked like a charm.

The social problems in this country are, in my view, insurmountable in the current form of govt/judiciary/society. Not meant to sound like a cop out, just think that it's a product of the afore mentioned. For true change to occur, we gotta get radical, without losing site of our humanity.

 

[Tez3]

Funny you should say that mate. We did act ourselves. Eventually, my step daughter, who was at school with some of these thugs, knew the lads in question. So, one day, I went out equipped with said baseball bat, before our very, very hard neighbour stopped me. He had a soft spot for my wife, and I wasn't about to refuse his assistance. We had the names and addresses of these kids, turns out they lived no more than 400 yards away. Jumped in my car, and we drove round the corner. Immediately, he leapt out, and very succintly explained to the "adults" slouching outside their "homes" that for their "children" to continue in their ways may lead to a random firebombing of their house at a most unacceptable hour of the morning and/or a kidnapping of prior mentioned children and horrible things done to them. Given that this man had fought most, if not all of the drongos/druggies in front of him, and, given them all a sound thrashing, there were no dissenting voices. And just like that, the problems stopped. Vigilantism oughtn't be condoned, but a watered down version of it in this case, worked like a charm.

The social problems in this country are, in my view, insurmountable in the current form of govt/judiciary/society. Not meant to sound like a cop out, just think that it's a product of the afore mentioned. For true change to occur, we gotta get radical, without losing site of our humanity.

I shall pretend I didn't read that rofl!! It's what I would have suggested if this hadn't been in public but of course can't possibly condone if asked!

 

[Hagakure]

I shall pretend I didn't read that rofl!! It's what I would have suggested if this hadn't been in public but of course can't possibly condone if asked!

Ahem... *Blushes*.

Hey, I said none of it, in fact, I distinctly remember standing a good few feet behind him going "Yeah!" like the school bullies fat sidekick. I had no idea what he was going to do, but a bloody good talking to, by the local nutjob who happened to like us worked a treat! Lol.