Yip Man's curriculum changes

[KPM]

===========================
I don't think that Ip Man learned much from YKS- just look at motions rather than listening to IKS gossip

I'd wager he learned more from YKS than from the mythical Leung Bik!

 

[KPM]

Unfortunately, no "history" of WC/VT development is reliable. Fact is though, YM only taught a few people the knives, so indeed very few people had the complete picture. Of course it wouldn't be widely known.

Orrrrrr.....he only taught a few people the knives because he didn't have his knife form fully worked out yet!

 

[KPM]

That it is taught empty hand > pole > knives doesn't mean that's the order in which each was developed.

Ok. It is an interesting theory. Please outline for us the logic behind it and the supporting evidence.

 

[Vajramusti]

I'd wager he learned more from YKS than from the mythical Leung Bik!

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Wager does not mean much in this case.
I take Ip Man at his word that Leung Bik gave the finishing touch to his wing chun development. But the real proof is in the usage.What has come via Ip Man is far more impressive than what has come YKS

In passing there is a YOU tube interview with one of the three
original Ip Man's Foshan students. I had a Cantonese speaker translate it for me. Ip Man told his student to quit doing what Ip Man taught him, specially the dummy whenever YKS came around.

 

[Juany118]

Ok. It is an interesting theory. Please outline for us the logic behind it and the supporting evidence.

First let me explain I have been, and likely will continue to use the terms sword and knife interchangeably because a 12 inch long blade straddles the line between the two so much. Some Bowie knives can have 12 inch blades.

I don't even think it is an interesting theory tbh. He seems to be under the following impression "older arts used the pole and double swords/knives, ergo these were first in WC because the empty hand WC form is unique, the weapon use is not." That appears to be his logic. The problem is though, as I illustrated by using the WC vs Hung Ga comparison with double swords (my pole experience is with a more "typical" staff length so I didn't comment in detail but long knives and short swords? Those I know) they are very different. I could have pointed out similar differences with Fujan White Crane and Choi Lee Fut as well. Simply because you can stab, slash and chop doesn't mean the manner in which you do that is actually functionally similar. If they are not functionally similar between arts how can we say the weapon form started first.

 

[Juany118]

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wager does not mean much in this case.
I take Ip Man at his word that Leung Bik gave the finishing touch to his wing chun development. But the real proof is in the usage.What has come via Ip Man is far more impressive than what has come YKS

In passing there is a YOU tube interview with one of the three
original Ip Man's Foshan students. I had a Cantonese speaker translate it for me. Ip Man told his student to quit doing what Ip Man taught him, specially the dummy whenever YKS came around.

Can you share a link sir? My best friend was born in Hong Kong, speaks Cantonese and she wants me to try and convince her son to study Wing Chun, or any Kung Fu for that matter. I think I can "bribe her" into translating the whole thing for me. I have no doubt you speak truth btw, I would just like to see the entire interview and understand it. It sounds very interesting.

 

[Vajramusti]

Can you share a link sir? My best friend was born in Hong Kong, speaks Cantonese and she wants me to try and convince her son to study Wing Chun, or any Kung Fu for that matter. I think I can "bribe her" into translating the whole thing for me. I have no doubt you speak truth btw, I would just like to see the entire interview and understand it. It sounds very interesting.

______________________________________________
Look up-Kwok Fu (not his son) "The secret interview"

PS: Sum Nun was YKS's best student and added lots of his own stuff. Because of his reactions during a visit by Rene Ritchie- Rene's site was renamed Sum Nun wing chun. If you are interested in gossip rather than wing chun theory and practice KPM's posts are good sources.

 

[KPM]

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wager does not mean much in this case.
I take Ip Man at his word that Leung Bik gave the finishing touch to his wing chun development. But the real proof is in the usage.What has come via Ip Man is far more impressive than what has come YKS

In passing there is a YOU tube interview with one of the three
original Ip Man's Foshan students. I had a Cantonese speaker translate it for me. Ip Man told his student to quit doing what Ip Man taught him, specially the dummy whenever YKS came around.

You know, that EXACT same story is told in the YKS lineage....except the other way around! In fact, it has been shown that a lot of the stories that circulated about Ip Man actually happened to Yuen Kay Shan. That is why Ip Chun made a public apology to YKS's grandson after the Ip Man movies. The "three heroes of Foshan" were Yuen Kay Shan, Ip Man, and Yiu Choi. They were friends and trained together. That is well established. So yeah, I think it is a pretty good wager that Ip Man learned more from YKS than Leung Bik. There are verified pictures of Yuen Kay Shan, and students of Yuen Kay Shan lineage in many places. We cannot say the same things about Leung Bik.

 

[LFJ]

First I totally agree that you do not HAVE to start with empty hands, I don't think anyone is saying that.

Really? I thought that's what everyone was saying. Who are you agreeing with?

However if you have weapons in your system, while not via an exact 1-1 transfer, if you have both empty hand striking and shorter single handed weapons, there are times where you can see, if you know what you are looking for, connections and if a practitioner feel, even if it is not obvious.

What is shared between VT empty hand and knives, the important bit, are tactical guidelines, not necessarily techniques.

Many apply the shapes and actions from empty hand directly to the knives, modifying where necessary. That's working in the wrong direction and with the wrong idea. Basing armed combat on empty hand techniques is not very smart. The nature of fighting someone wielding blades vs not is radically different. You will die.

 

[LFJ]

Orrrrrr.....he only taught a few people the knives because he didn't have his knife form fully worked out yet!

The form is not the method. It's only homework. Only a few people ever got either, anyway.

So, like I said, not surprising if it's not common knowledge.

Ok. It is an interesting theory. Please outline for us the logic behind it and the supporting evidence.

He seems to be under the following impression "older arts used the pole and double swords/knives, ergo these were first in WC because the empty hand WC form is unique, the weapon use is not." That appears to be his logic.

Not at all. I'm talking about the methods, not the weapons.

The pole method specifically in other styles is practically indistinguishable from VT pole. That only proves it wasn't created based on VT empty hand, since the method already existed.

Yet, VT empty hand is closely mapped to this pole method, combined with tactical guidelines from the knives.

That is not possible if the VT empty hand method was not conceptualized using these existing weapon methods as foundation.

The empty hand training system also has preparations for weapon training in the forms and drills. That means they were created after the weapons, with the weapon training already in mind.

If it were the other way around, the weapon methods should not predate VT empty hand or be found in other styles.

Not knowing any better, though, people just give these actions all sorts of weird applications, missing the connection because they never learned it. Oh well.

If they are not functionally similar between arts how can we say the weapon form started first.

If you haven't learned BJD, you can't presume to know the actual strategy and tactics from looking at the blade design. There are many variations even in YM lineages (both design and use). So, I don't even know which you are looking at while making your guesses.

 

[Vajramusti]

You know, that EXACT same story is told in the YKS lineage....except the other way around! In fact, it has been shown that a lot of the stories that circulated about Ip Man actually happened to Yuen Kay Shan. That is why Ip Chun made a public apology to YKS's grandson after the Ip Man movies. The "three heroes of Foshan" were Yuen Kay Shan, Ip Man, and Yiu Choi. They were friends and trained together. That is well established. So yeah, I think it is a pretty good wager that Ip Man learned more from YKS than Leung Bik. There are verified pictures of Yuen Kay Shan, and students of Yuen Kay Shan lineage in many places. We cannot say the same things about Leung Bik.

_________________________________________________________
EXACT? World of alternative fact
perhaps. Ip Chun's apology-offering of tea had to do with the portrayal of YKS in an IpMan (fictionalized) movie...not about YKS "teaching" Ip Man. Anyway, I will leave further gossip to you.
leave it with your gossip

 

[LFJ]

In passing there is a YOU tube interview with one of the three
original Ip Man's Foshan students. I had a Cantonese speaker translate it for me. Ip Man told his student to quit doing what Ip Man taught him, specially the dummy whenever YKS came around.

At about 3:10 in the following video.

He doesn't say anything about hiding the dummy, but he tells an interesting story...

A story of how YKS would come in and sit with YM every night and watch the students train. Then YM told him (GF) to fight YKS to run him off and not let him keep sitting there watching what YM had been teaching them.

So, GF asked YKS to come teach him a thing or two since his kung fu was known to be really great too, and YKS obliged. But as he saw that YKS was older than him and he was still quite young (about 20 years old), he decided to take it easy on him.

GF threw some shots, but always stopped just before landing. Kept placing strikes while YKS was fiercely trying to hit him hard and fast but could never touch him.

Later, YKS went around telling everyone that GF's kung fu was the best, and that's how GF made a name for himself.

 

[Vajramusti]

At about 3:10 in the following video.

He doesn't say anything about hiding the dummy, but he tells an interesting story...

A story of how YKS would come in and sit with YM every night and watch the students train. Then YM told him (GF) to fight YKS to run him off and not let him keep sitting there watching what YM had been teaching them.

So, GF asked YKS to come teach him a thing or two since his kung fu was known to be really great too, and YKS obliged. But as he saw that YKS was older than him and he was still quite young (about 20 years old), he decided to take it easy on him.

GF threw some shots, but always stopped just before landing. Kept placing strikes while YKS was fiercely trying to hit him hard and fast but could never touch him.

Later, YKS went around telling everyone that GF's kung fu was the best, and that's how GF made a name for himself.

____________________________________________________
Thanks for the translation. I did not say or mean hiding the dummy- but not showing the work on the dummy. Thanks. I understood the thrust of what he said.

 

[LFJ]

I did not say or mean hiding the dummy- but not showing the work on the dummy.

Yeah, that's what I meant. Haha. Not that they were scrambling to cover up the dummy so YKS wouldn't see they had one!

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I believe the WC pole is suppose to be "spear without spear head". There are more "spear" techniques than "staff" techniques.

In the "long fist Kun Wu staff form", there is no "spear" techniques in it.

Here is a "long fist Yang Jia spear" form.

 

[Juany118]

The form is not the method. It's only homework. Only a few people ever got either, anyway.

So, like I said, not surprising if it's not common knowledge.




Not at all. I'm talking about the methods, not the weapons.

The pole method specifically in other styles is practically indistinguishable from VT pole. That only proves it wasn't created based on VT empty hand, since the method already existed.

Yet, VT empty hand is closely mapped to this pole method, combined with tactical guidelines from the knives.

That is not possible if the VT empty hand method was not conceptualized using these existing weapon methods as foundation.

The empty hand training system also has preparations for weapon training in the forms and drills. That means they were created after the weapons, with the weapon training already in mind.

If it were the other way around, the weapon methods should not predate VT empty hand or be found in other styles.

Not knowing any better, though, people just give these actions all sorts of weird applications, missing the connection because they never learned it. Oh well.



If you haven't learned BJD, you can't presume to know the actual strategy and tactics from looking at the blade design. There are many variations even in YM lineages (both design and use). So, I don't even know which you are looking at while making your guesses.

So, since I don't want to be bothered with the padding at his point as I am tired of this...

You moved the goal post for like the 100th time



My argument was that in terms of paired swords/knives WC had equally unique properties as empty hand. You claimed the unarmed forms were unique. I didn't deny that but showed how, contrary to your contention, the double sword/knife were equally unique when compared to another style.

If you care to show a CMA that WC duplicates in terms of BJD... Please do, I do the mind being better informed. I have dug and dug. Your claim, your burden to prove.

I doubt that will happen though because I explained in detail how another differs from WC and you so obviously avoided those points.

 

[KPM]

______________________________________________
Look up-Kwok Fu (not his son) "The secret interview"

PS: Sum Nun was YKS's best student and added lots of his own stuff. Because of his reactions during a visit by Rene Ritchie- Rene's site was renamed Sum Nun wing chun. If you are interested in gossip rather than wing chun theory and practice KPM's posts are good sources.

Gossip? Really? Try reading something other than the Ip Man "party line" sometime. Also try keeping an bit more of an open mind. Rene Ritchie would tell you the same things I just did on this thread.

 

[KPM]

At about 3:10 in the following video.

He doesn't say anything about hiding the dummy, but he tells an interesting story...

Thanks LFJ! So it seems I'm not the only one that was "gossiping" here??? Seems Joy is guilty of what he is so quick to accuse others of??? And we both know how old men love to tell stories. That makes it very hard to sort truth from fiction. But there is no doubt that YKS was a living and breathing Wing Chun person. The same cannot be said for Leung Bik.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The form is not the method. It's only homework. Only a few people ever got either, anyway.

So, like I said, not surprising if it's not common knowledge.




Not at all. I'm talking about the methods, not the weapons.

The pole method specifically in other styles is practically indistinguishable from VT pole. That only proves it wasn't created based on VT empty hand, since the method already existed.

Yet, VT empty hand is closely mapped to this pole method, combined with tactical guidelines from the knives.

That is not possible if the VT empty hand method was not conceptualized using these existing weapon methods as foundation.

The empty hand training system also has preparations for weapon training in the forms and drills. That means they were created after the weapons, with the weapon training already in mind.

If it were the other way around, the weapon methods should not predate VT empty hand or be found in other styles.

Not knowing any better, though, people just give these actions all sorts of weird applications, missing the connection because they never learned it. Oh well.



If you haven't learned BJD, you can't presume to know the actual strategy and tactics from looking at the blade design. There are many variations even in YM lineages (both design and use). So, I don't even know which you are looking at while making your guesses.

I'm not sure I follow the logic of your overall argument, LFJ. Let me state my understanding, and give you a chance to correct if I'm reading it wrong. As I understand it, you're saying that the weapons methods (especially the pole) are demonstrably older than WC/VT, as can be seen by their presence in other arts. And the WC/VT empty-hand methods are fairly unique to the art. Those empty-hand methods are also clearly aligned with some of the core principles in the weapons methods. And this leads to the conclusion that the hands are based (at least largely) on the weapons, rather than the reverse. Am I close?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yeah, that's what I meant. Haha. Not that they were scrambling to cover up the dummy so YKS wouldn't see they had one!

I had an image of a bunch of them standing in front of it, trying to look very casual.