Yip Man's curriculum changes

[KPM]

There is YM VT (based exclusively upon pole and knives). There is pole elsewhere. There is not hand only prehistoric VT style. So you are wrong (again).

Uh, no. Sorry. You logic is obviously flawed. No one would expect there to be a "prehistoric" VT style still around. Its the whole "theory of evolution" argument. Haven't you been following this thread??? But there is NO system of Wing Chun independent of WSLVT that teaches the "empty hands come entirely from weapons" theory and that tracks the empty hand and weapons so closely together. THAT is a much bigger problem that there being no present day "prehistoric" VT style!

 

[DALE80]

Have you seriously not noticed that I have said REPEATEDLY that it's a nice theory and not without support?? I've not opposed the theory, at all. Not once. I've only discussed the logic of the evidence.

Which I think you treated in a very biased way in order to troll LFJ. Personally I would rather hear about VT than stuff you read on wikipedia because you like to feel clever.

 

[KPM]

You are an incredibly biased person with a massive ego, commenting obsessively about a tcma system you don't have the slightest understanding of. I can only assume you are unemployed to spend your days in such a pathetic way. What I have learned reading this thread is that it isn't worth reading the self-indulgent and hateful waffle that you churn out in massive quantities to make yoursef feel important.

You are ignored.

With statements like that just because someone happens to disagree with you....you are certainly welcome to go elsewhere!!!

 

[DALE80]

there is NO system of Wing Chun independent of WSLVT that teaches the "empty hands come entirely from weapons" theory and that tracks the empty hand and weapons so closely together. THAT is a much bigger problem that there being no present day "prehistoric" VT style!

This is because YM didn't teach many people his VT. It is a much larger problem for other YM derived wing chun than for WSL VT

 

[geezer]

For me, it is a lot more interesting and rewarding to interact politely and learn from such people, rather than give any consideration to what they might be thinking or whether I like their attitude. It just seems so counter productive to focus on such trivial things.

Good on you, mate. I agree, and am here to learn as well as to share.

On the other hand, you have to consider that others here are not exactly ignorant. Many have been involved in WC/VT/WC for a long time. I switched from another TCMA to WC in 1979 and even so, I am way junior to many others like Joy (Vajramusdi). He has been a student of Ho Kam Ming's student Augustine Fong since I was a boy (and I'm 61 now). He has also done chi-sau with the likes of Tsui Sheung Tin and Wong Shun Leung. That's just one example. So I come here with a healthy dose of humility.

 

[KPM]

YM VT is evidence for a weapons based empty hand VT. Who needs for it to be from before YM?

Ok. So now you are proposing the it was Ip Man himself that created a Wing Chun method completely from the weapons and completely independent of any other Wing Chun system? Really??? That he just totally "forgot" everything he learned from Chan Wh Shun and Ng Chung So and started over completely from scratch? That's really what you think?

 

[DALE80]

Sounds like you also know nothing about grappling beyond submissions.

Go and put on your ninja skirt and play at fighting, there's a good chap

 

[DALE80]

I am way junior to many others like Joy (Vajramusdi). He has been a student of Ho Kam Ming's student Augustine Fong since I was a boy (and I'm 61 now). He has also done chi-sau with the likes of Tsui Sheung Tin and Wong Shun Leung. That's just one example. So I come here with a healthy dose of humility

He sounds like an interesting guy, don't think I have seen him posting though. Hope he joins the conversation.

 

[KPM]

I don't see why some earlier figure could not have passed on the full weapon based system to some people, while passing on a simplified version with hands only or weapons and hands understanding missing? But it really doesn't concern me where it came from, only that it exists. LFJ's theory is a nice one and it is interesting to think about whenever the trolls take a breather from the attack. I can't understand why it provokes such opposition myself.

Dude! You really need to go back and read this thread from the beginning! There was no opposition until LFJ starting dogmatically stating things as if they were facts and completely denying any logic or points anyone else made that contradicted his belief! THAT is what provoked so much opposition! And that is common practice for LFJ in most discussions in which he participates! You really have no idea! And then to come around calling anyone that doesn't agree with YOU a troll just boggles the mind!!

 

[DALE80]

Uh, no. Sorry. You logic is obviously flawed. No one would expect there to be a "prehistoric" VT style still around. Its the whole "theory of evolution" argument. Haven't you been following this thread??? But there is NO system of Wing Chun independent of WSLVT that teaches the "empty hands come entirely from weapons" theory and that tracks the empty hand and weapons so closely together. THAT is a much bigger problem that there being no present day "prehistoric" VT style!

zzzzzzzz

 

[geezer]

Are you some kind of moderator?

No, I'm just a "Mentor". Like a Mod with no teeth. We are folks who try to lead by example and encourage civility. If we fail, the Mods come in. You will know when that happens.

 

[DALE80]

Dude! You really need to go back and read this thread from the beginning! There was no opposition until LFJ starting dogmatically stating things as if they were facts and completely denying any logic or points anyone else made that contradicted his belief! THAT is what provoked so much opposition! And that is common practice for LFJ in most discussions in which he participates! You really have no idea! And then to come around calling anyone that doesn't agree with YOU a troll just boggles the mind!!

Okay, see you at the start of the thread. You go first, I'll meet you there in a bit. Don't come back too soon

 

[DALE80]

No, I'm just a "Mentor". Like a Mod with no teeth. We are folks who try to lead by example and encourage civility. If we fail, the Mods come in. You will know when that happens.

I will try to be more civil, especially when you are around! Can you do something about these trolls ruining the actual thread of discussion?

 

[KPM]

Are you some kind of moderator?

If so then maybe try and call off the some of the dogs here (KPM, Seymour, Juany). They are really ruining the forum from an outside observer's point of view and add very little to nothing of substance. If they back off and become civil then i am happy not to call them names which might hurt their poor feelings

LFJ is worth 100 of these because he actually knows what he is talking about and is willing to share it. Who cares if he isn't friendly and doesn't make you feel special? At the end of the day it's about learning VT, not mincing around the forum feeling good about yourself,

Just who the heck are you??? You just arrived on the scene and you are making pronouncements about "ruining the forum"??? And once again, you are not acknowledging all the valid points that myself, Gerry, and others have contributed simply because the contradict your pet theory? You've repeatedly insulted Gerry now for no real reason. And you have no idea what kind of reputation LFJ has created for himself here by the way he has treated people and posted in the past. And you certainly are not off to a good start! You should know that WSLVT people have developed a rather poor reputation here and you are just adding to that impression!

 

[KPM]

Okay, see you at the start of the thread. You go first, I'll meet you there in a bit. Don't come back too soon

Oh, unlike you I've actually read it already! You do realize that calling other people names and making derogatory comments about them given your recent responses does not at all support the idea that you know what you are talking about or support your points in any way???

 

[DALE80]

Just who the heck are you??? You just arrived on the scene and you are making pronouncements about "ruining the forum"???

I'm a person that likes to read the forum. Who are you?

And once again, you are not acknowledging all the valid points that myself, Gerry, and others have contributed simply because the contradict your pet theory?

I didn't agree that you had any valid points, and i didn't apprevciate your incessant trolling which almost ruined the discussion.

You've repeatedly insulted Gerry now for no real reason

Gerry has been trolling the thread, and has almost ruined it, along with you and Juany. Seems a good reason to me.

And you have no idea what kind of reputation LFJ has created for himself here by the way he has treated people and posted in the past. And you certainly are not off to a good start! You should know that WSLVT people have developed a rather poor reputation here and you are just adding to that impression!

LFJ's reputation in the wider world is as someone that knows a lot about VT and is willing to share. I don't feel particularly well disposed to apparently jealous people like yourself and Gerry who seem to feel too self important to listen and learn.

Forum popularity isn't my top priority either, but I bear you no grudge and I will treat you the way you treat others, i.e. fairly

 

[Juany118]

Sounds like the kind of thing that doesn't work. Be careful!

Actually it works quite well, very similar to Traditional Japanese Jujutsu in that regard. Joints are only designed to work in specific ways. what keeps them stabilized is soft tissue. Just as a proper WC/VT kick can hyperextend/"break" the knee due to the proper application force and leverage if applied properly, there are grappling techniques that can do the same to the various joints.

 

[Juany118]

LFJ's reputation in the wider world is as someone that knows a lot about VT and is willing to share. I don't feel particularly well disposed to apparently jealous people like yourself and Gerry who seem to feel too self important to listen and learn.

Forum popularity isn't my top priority either, but I bear you no grudge and I will treat you the way you treat others, i.e. fairly

It's odd because his reputation in the wider world is indeed of someone who knows quite a bit about WSLVT but it is also as one who believes that the rules of WSLVT apply universally to all YMVT when they do not. Even first gen students of WSL state that WSL altered things based on his personal experiences in challenge matches.

He was was to simply say "based on my knowledge of WSLVT this is what I have personally come to believe..." I don't think any of us would be having any issue with what he says. However he contradicts at least two living students of WSL himself AND to make matters more infuriating he extends his opinion based on his experience in WSLVT to ALL of YMVT. So He says "based on my research DP, GL lie about what they were taught by WSL, the surviving Ips and all the other first gen students of YM are also wrong. They have no clue about what YM actually taught them."

 

[Juany118]

In competition and certain jobs like security/law enforcement you may use control and hold back, you cause pain and effect a submission. If you are fighting for your life you go all out and break things. That's pretty straightforward. I'm not sure why Dale made that comment.

Exactly. The reason my Sifu/Guro saves that training for a specific place in a student's growth is because he wants to be 100% sure that the student's in question are capable of not crossing that line, because with some techniques it is a very fine line.

 

[Juany118]

From the past few pages why am I definitely getting the feeling we have a "sock account?" Blatant hero worship, no actual independent contribution to the discussion and endless ad hominem attacks.