Yang Mian

[ggg214]

i am confused.
why do you say relaxed hitting with waist power is not fajing?

 

[blindsage]

i am confused.
why do you say relaxed hitting with waist power is not fajing?

Because fajin requires more, see the Chen Xiaowang video.

 

[Xue Sheng]

i am confused.
why do you say relaxed hitting with waist power is not fajing?

First define relaxed hitting

And it is not waist power; Power is directed by the waist. If you are using power from your wasit you are not getting the power from your root.

Fu Zhongwen

Chen Zhonghua

Chen Xiaowang

Han Xingyuan

 

[mograph]

Ah -- for some reason, those old directions now seem clearer. "Begins with the feet, directed by the waist" and all that. The waist focuses, channels, directs the power which issues from the feet/root/ground.

It's almost as if the waist directs your own power in the same way that you direct the opponent's power. Not too much intervention involved, because that would break the connection.

... or maybe I'm thinking too much.

(Hey, Han Xingyuan was my teacher's teacher!)

 

[Drifter]

Fajin is not demonstrated by a sound. Someone posted a Chen Xiaowang video on another thread that demonstrates what fajin looks like. None of the Yang Mien videos demonstrate this. That's not saying the system isn't good, or any value judgement period. It's just saying that I don't see anything related to fajin. Fajin is not just hitting relaxed with waist power, which is what the videos show. This is a great method for generating power, but it is not fajin.


I'm not making a statement whether or not I 'believe' in Master Yang's system. I'm saying a specific statement was made and the evidence is not there to back it.


Bruce is one of the most studied MAists who ever lived. We pretty much know what he studied. None of it taught fajin. But again, relaxed hitting with waist power is not fajin.

Power sound coming from anywhere does not equal fajin

I dont believe I said that sound equals fajin, I merely mentioned that sound is produced while doing it.

fajin requires Internal training, proper relaxation (both internal and external), proper body alignment, flexibility and breath coordination with movement.

Yes that is correct, I dont know who that was directed at, regardless, my post intention was not to describe fajin, but to describe Master Yang's art style in a simple way for others to understand. All those little things you mentioned will come to you with practice, it cant be told to you, but the master will guide you in that direction, you need to discover and understand it for yourself.

From what Ive learned, fajin basically means explosive power. To achieve it you need to be relaxed, the power should start from your feet, but I thought that was a common thing all martial artists should know regardless if your trying for explosive power or not. For those who didn't know that, you will learn it naturally while practicing your martial arts, I know that because thats how I found out. I can see this post is heading off topic, so Im just gona end it at that.

Ah -- for some reason, those old directions now seem clearer. "Begins with the feet, directed by the waist" and all that. The waist focuses, channels, directs the power which issues from the feet/root/ground.

It's almost as if the waist directs your own power in the same way that you direct the opponent's power. Not too much intervention involved, because that would break the connection.

... or maybe I'm thinking too much.

Your on the right track mograph , it all begins with the feet. Not sure I understand what you mean by the other part you mentioned?

To jamesjbs, which days do you train, do you come to the gym, I train on Saturdays, from about 9am-12pm.

For those who are interested, good luck in your martial arts endeavor's and never give up and dont listen to the negative's until you try the martial arts your self. If anyone has any more questions to ask, feel free to PM me.

 

[ggg214]

i don't know whether there is a special definition of fa jing. from the posts above, i feel that only internal MAs have fajing, but external don't.
in my understanding ,fa jing is to use your explosive power on your opponent, that's all.it doesn't consider whther your power comes from waist or foot.
meanwhile, i have an opinion that CMA is very economical. if your waist can enhance your explosive power, why do you use it only in directing? it's a big waste!
when talking about chinese old direction, it's better to read chinese version. about waist, i have found several sayings, such as "发于腰" or "主宰于腰", the meaning is not just directing.

 

[jamesjbs]

Gidday Drifter,
I live in Brisbane and head down to Sydney to train.
Your posts have been pretty much my experience of Yang Mian too.
I dont have much to add.








(A man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still)

 

[Xue Sheng]

i don't know whether there is a special definition of fa jing. from the posts above, i feel that only internal MAs have fajing, but external don't.
in my understanding ,fa jing is to use your explosive power on your opponent, that's all.it doesn't consider whther your power comes from waist or foot.
meanwhile, i have an opinion that CMA is very economical. if your waist can enhance your explosive power, why do you use it only in directing? it's a big waste!
when talking about chinese old direction, it's better to read chinese version. about waist, i have found several sayings, such as "发于腰" or "主宰于腰", the meaning is not just directing.

Can you have any power in your waist without a root?

 

[East Winds]

There is a lot of nonsense talked about Fa Jing/Jin. There is no connotation of "explosive" in Fa Jing. Fa Jing just means "issue energy". That is, ANY of the Taiji energies. And I do believe you need a root although the root does not necessarily have to be in the feet.

Very best wishes

 

[Xue Sheng]

OK this is driving me nuts, mostly because I did not know, but I just asked my wife

It is fā jìn, 發勁 not fā jīng 發精

And I am as guilty as the next guy for using the term fajing

Not wanting to hijack this thread another post will follow

 

[East Winds]

Xue Sheng,

You are of course absolutely right. However the terms have been used interchangeably for many years which is why I used the Fa Jing/Jin format.

Very best wishes

 

[Xue Sheng]

Xue Sheng,

You are of course absolutely right. However the terms have been used interchangeably for many years which is why I used the Fa Jing/Jin format.

Very best wishes

So is Kung Fu and Wushu

I have used them interchangably for many years too... but from now on...it's fajin for me

 

[ggg214]

Can you have any power in your waist without a root?

XUE SHENG

i don't want to deny the effect of a root in fa jin.

but i don't agree with that the waist is only used in directing power.

 

[Xue Sheng]

XUE SHENG

i don't want to deny the effect of a root in fa jin.

but i don't agree with that the waist is only used in directing power.

It is not only used for directing power, but it is rather important for fajin and its function is a bit more like the hub of a wheel in that case. However power does not come "only" from the waist if we are talking fajin. The function of the waist is, for the most part, in the case of fajin to direct power especially if you are talking a “Neijia”. However I personally believe you will find the same function in a waijia. As hard as my Sanda Sifu tried to not discuss things in neijia and waijia terms he was saying and doing the same thing just with more “modern” terminology

Fajin is an efficient release of energy and to do that you need to be relaxed, minimize muscular tension and have a root. Not necessarily in the sense we tend to think about it as rooted via the yongquan (湧泉), you can be laying down, seated, on one foot or on your knees and be rooted.

But to say relaxed hitting and waist power is all you need for fajin is not correct since the power is not generally generated in the waist but power form the waist can most certainly contribute to it (it can also hinder if you have to much tension) and in English to say “Relaxed hitting” needs to have the term defined as to what you mean. I can keep my arms very relaxed and use my waist to generate power to start swinging them around like a windmill and then start hitting stuff but that is not fajiin.

 

[mograph]

...but i don't agree with that the waist is only used in directing power.

If you're saying that the waist can play a role in generating the power, being part of the whole-body generation of power, yet still respecting its role as the director of generated energy, then I'm with you, for what it's worth.

In other words, you're saying that if the waist opted out of the power-generation circuit and focused solely on direction, the whole-body connection would be broken at the waist, no?

 

[Drifter]

Ive just gone and did a bit of info gathering by asking other students from my class regarding yang mian's system and also on fajin. They all pretty much had a similar description in there own words.

So far from what Ive collected, fajin from what Ive understood, is apparently all internal, Yang Mian's system is internal and also external, basically when we initiate our attack it starts soft, but then at the point of impact we become springy/tense, elastic is probably a more accurate description. That is from Master Yang's description, not in those exact words mind you. Again Im not saying that we use Fajin, but I believe we do in some form or another.

Also If you watch carefully in the Chen video you will see one hand will always touch his body before doing his attack, from what Ive been told, thats where he gets his internal power from, by channeling it from his body. Again thats just a theory so don't criticize me.

When we train we are basically trying to get that kind of sudden explosive fajin style power like in the chen xiaowang video. From some of the more experienced students, which have been doing it for over 10 years, to achieve that kind of power like what you see from Chen Xiaowang takes a few decades or more. The students who have been doing it for over ten years dont even have Chen Xiaowang's power, its similar because I can see that they are very fast and from what Master Yang demonstrated on me, he physically punched me in the stomach and I flew back at least a meter. I believe it is similar, but I have no proof other then comparing from what Ive actually seen with my own eye's.

So far from what Ive learnt with Master Yang is our internal part we learn is to protect our inside, so therefore we can take outside forces and feel very little to no pain. The external is the hardness you feel when we punch or elbow. So far Im able to take a full punch to the abs or body and just shrug it off with little pain, from another student in my class, thats another story, Im still developing the internal strength, which takes longer.

PS. This is all just from my experience and from other people's experience and knowledge, I would very much like to give proof of such things as Ive mentioned above by doing some demonstrations of myself, but I wont do that unless my Master gives me permission to do otherwise. Sorry.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I forget this quote from time to time but it is very applicable here

During the end of the Ming dynasty, some none CMA scholar created the word "internal" so Chinese can argue about "internal" vs. "external" for the next 300 years. --- Adam Hsu

And 366 years after the Ming Dynasty fell we are still arguing about it

Also see the Epitaph for Wang Zhengnan -1669, just after the Ming dynasty.

 

[mograph]

Also If you watch carefully in the Chen video you will see one hand will always touch his body before doing his attack, from what Ive been told, thats where he gets his internal power from, by channeling it from his body. Again thats just a theory so don't criticize me.

This isn't aimed at you. I wouldn't place too much stock in that sort of theory, because I don't believe that someone of his level would be so disconnected as to need to touch himself with his hands in order to ... send power from his hands to his body? From his body to his hands? He has it or he doesn't have it -- he doesn't need to touch himself to "channel" it. This view of fa jin perpetuates the idea that internal energy is somehow like Green Lantern's charging his Power Ring. These ideas tend to keep students from learning real internal power by describing it in impossible, unrealistic terms, and it perpetuates the idea of "Chinese" as "exotic".

I suspect the hand thing is just a habit he developed over the years.

Just my opinion.
More practice.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Also If you watch carefully in the Chen video you will see one hand will always touch his body before doing his attack, from what Ive been told, thats where he gets his internal power from, by channeling it from his body. Again thats just a theory so don't criticize me.

Not meaning to criticize but your wrong. People like Chen Xiaowang (19th generation Chen family) do not need to touch their body to get internal power. I have never meant Chen Xiaowang but I have meant and trained a bit with Chen Zhenglei (19th generation Chen family) and he can generate power and hit you with it from just about any place and there is no need to touch his body to do it. The same goes for my Yang taiji Sifu who is technically 5th generation Yang and a student of Tung Ying Chieh. He will seem very relaxed and can hit you hard with what appears to be little effort on his part, and he is not touching his body.

Chen Xiaowang is simply doing a demo in the attached video. In real fighting applications it would not be as obvious.

This isn't aimed at you. I wouldn't place too much stock in that sort of theory, because I don't believe that someone of his level would be so disconnected as to need to touch himself with his hands in order to ... send power from his hands to his body? From his body to his hands? He has it or he doesn't have it -- he doesn't need to touch himself to "channel" it. This view of fa jin perpetuates the idea that internal energy is somehow like Green Lantern's charging his Power Ring. These ideas tend to keep students from learning real internal power by describing it in impossible, unrealistic terms, and it perpetuates the idea of "Chinese" as "exotic".

I suspect the hand thing is just a habit he developed over the years.

Just my opinion.
More practice.

Exactly.

I can tell you from experience that Chen Zhenglei does not need to channel by touching his body and he can be very explosive in application. And both Chen Zhenglei and Chen Xiaowang come from pretty much the same training background

 

[Drifter]

Not meaning to criticize but your wrong. People like Chen Xiaowang (19th generation Chen family) do not need to touch their body to get internal power. I have never meant Chen Xiaowang but I have meant and trained a bit with Chen Zhenglei (19th generation Chen family) and he can generate power and hit you with it from just about any place and there is no need to touch his body to do it. The same goes for my Yang taiji Sifu who is technically 5th generation Yang and a student of Tung Ying Chieh. He will seem very relaxed and can hit you hard with what appears to be little effort on his part, and he is not touching his body.

Ok cool, atleast that info is cleared up. Thanks for the info.

All this debating about fajin is giving me a headache lol. You have a good point there Xue sheng, regarding about all this argument about internal/external. Maybe its as simple as it appears to be and we could just be looking too hard into it. Its driving me nuts because you hear so many different opinions I keep ending up back at square one.

I asked Master Yang today regarding fajin, he said its internal and to understand it, you need to feel it. Thats basically all he said regarding fajin. Also another thing he said is he doesnt explain too much when he is teaching us because we need to understand it first by discovering it before we can actually learn it,(does that make sense?) once we discover it then we can delve deeper into what it is he is teaching us.

anyway, thanks for the reply's all.