XMA martial arts performances

[DeLamar.J]

Very cute girl. A cute gymnast but not a beautiful artist. She has no root, and thus no power from the ground, and thus no real applicable power. I'm sure that she has won many trophies, but the beauty of the martial arts lies in higher applicable physical function, not in impressing those with the untrained eye. Your thoughs??


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYcA-srWKNk&feature=related

 

[jarrod]

xma has never been about being applicable.

jf

 

[Steve]

She Looked good to me. I can't do that.

As for applicability, she looked as powerful as the guys I saw doing tkd in the olympics. On the other hand, I'm not sure anyone would need to punch something directly above them. Maybe a falling fruit?

 

[Tez3]

She does however make a lot of money from performances, advertising and sponsorship.it's a good living for her if not martial arts.

 

[DeLamar.J]

I just feel that true martial arts should be a about being able to use the techniques in a real fight. There are many health and spiritual gains from martial arts, but those should always be side effects from learning a real fighting art. I love the soft side of martial arts because it is essential in building proper grace and temperment in a true fighter.
I just feel people should not be exposed to the softer side until they have spent a good amount of time dealing with the bumps and bruises of the hard side, only then should the very technical and spiritual elements of the soft side of martial arts be taught.
I mean no disrespect to anyone, just expressing my views

 

[Tez3]

I just feel that true martial arts should be a about being able to use the techniques in a real fight. There are many health and spiritual gains from martial arts, but those should always be side effects from learning a real fighting art. I love the soft side of martial arts because it is essential in building proper grace and temperment in a true fighter.
I just feel people should not be exposed to the softer side until they have spent a good amount of time dealing with the bumps and bruises of the hard side, only then should the very technical and spiritual elements of the soft side of martial arts be taught.
I mean no disrespect to anyone, just expressing my views

I agree with you actually, to me martial arts is whether you are able to fight or not. It's a different argument whether you should etc but you must have the ability to be able to fight. I just feel if you do this sort of thing it's for entertainment purposes, if they are able to fight as well, good for them but I have the feeling that for many this is all they can do.

 

[seasoned]

The first thing that struck me were the earrings. I know you are being judged on content of the kata along with application. If I were judging the performance, she would be very disappointed.

 

[Tez3]

The first thing that struck me were the earrings. I know you are being judged on content of the kata along with application. If I were judging the performance, she would be very disappointed.

I've seen her several times, always as a performance for which she was being paid.

 

[Kwan Jang]

Jay,
I know of Chloe Bruce, but do not know her, so you might know more of her fighting background or lack of it than I do. However, as far as being "rooted" and lacking power, I really don't understand what you mean by this. She demonstrated good stance work from a Korean-style viewpoint (at least for a 2nd dan) and her hand combos and kicking combos had good snap and extension. Most of her kicking combos had the base foot solid and pivoted correctly and were along the same principles of kicking developed by Bill Wallace. Of course, people used to criticize his kicks as lacking power too, until he knocked them out with them.

I know there are many around here who don't like XMA, so be it. I am not a raging fan by any means. There are some performers in it that lack solid basics and simply are second rate gymnasts and breakdancers with a little martial arts skill thrown in and I will say nothing in their defense. Still, what I am seeing from this video of Chloe Bruce and the one on the TKD forum of Steve Terada showed a good skill base and simply added movements that showed their athletic ability for their performance art.

Actually, I do understand and have spent years (I spent a good deal of the '90's on that as a side project) breaking down the kyusho and tuite applications of traditional forms bunkai, so I do know the value of traditional forms. OTOH, most of the black belts and even masters out there still are only performing the "children's art" applications of these forms and basics. As such, their use of traditional kata is actually less effective for fighting than what I see from performers like Chloe and Steve. At least the "Wallace-style" kicking combos have been proven effective in full contact sparring matches against world-class opponents. A reverse punch in a deep stance with the opposite hand chambered at the hip (when this is not used as grabbing and striking) is far less applicable in sparring or combat. And at least most of the XMA guys won't try to justify the fighting application of a gainer or butterfly twist the way some traditional Korean artists will try to justify a "mountain block" (I chose this one because all I could ever find as far as any use of this technique was that it resembled poses that are used to imply that TKD is "an ancient Korean art").

There seems to be undercurrent in threads like this that the XMA performers can't fight. While there may be some truth in this in certain individual cases, I don't see it as valid overall. The vast majority of these people will divide up their training the way many TMA guys do into sparring, self defense, and forms applications and work. It's just that they take their forms work to a higher athletic level than many of the people who compete in traditional forms.

During my teen years in the early '80's, I performed with KJN Ernie Reyes' West Coast Demo Team (I still am of one of the few "old guys" who performs on occasion with the current World Action Team). In many ways, we were the XMA guys of our era. We did many performances at many of the national and international open tournaments during that era. Many of our team would also compete in the forms competitions since we were already there. Some of our team members like George Chung and Cyndi Rothrock were the top forms champions of the day. With others like Gary Nakahama, Margie Betke, Ernie Reyes, Jr., Dayton Pang, myself, BJ Vining, Belinda Davis and others being nationally rated. There was an undercurrent of opinion on the circuit that we were "all flash and no substance" and couldn't fight.

The truth was that while a few of our team did point fight on occasion, point sparring was a drill we use to teach kids and beginners how to target and that's about it. Most of our guys at the time trained for either Olympic TKD or full contact (kickboxing). Several were champions at these and most of our sparring in our school was along these rule sets. We considered the "tough guy" point fighters to just be playing a game of "tag". At the time they were complaining that we were afraid to come point spar with them, we were often preparing for a full contact match. KJN Ernie's partner for 40 years and Co-founder of our assn., KJN Tony Thompson was a VP of the old PKA and one of the fouunders of ISKA kickboxing.

At Ed Parker's Internationals in '81, we had a team fight against a team from Chuck Norris' schools. That year, most of us weren't doing the show, so we didn't need to worry about getting hurt and could play. George Chung decided this would be a good venue to shut up some of his critics and fought Chip Wright in this point sparring match. Chip was a top rated point fighter who was not only one of Chuck's top fighters, but was later inducted into the BLACK BELT HALL OF FAME as "Fighter of the Year". George beat Chip 7-0 (back in the day that all techniques landed were one point a piece and team fights were accumalative points without a cap). In scoring points 1-6, George played it straight, on the last point, he nailed Chip with a kick out of an aeriel cartwheel just to show his critics that he could land this against a point fighter of Chip's caliber.

These days, our schools have evolved into MMA, though we still include out traditional roots in the training. We blend MT, BJJ, TKD, and the FMA's in our curriculum. One of my old team mates was the head of K-1 USA and now Strikeforce MMA. We have had a very successful MMA camp branch out from a side program at our school's as well (AKA). Many of our guys have fought successfully at these venues. Still, we have the current incarnation of the World Action Team and this is what is probably our highest profile thing in the MA's. Some of our guys are still rated in forms including the XMA division. One of the top guys of the current crop, Kim Do pulled a George a few years ago at the Battle of Atlanta by KO'ing an opponent with a "webster" (an axe kick out of a front flip) just to show that he can. Does Kim train to do that for sparring or self defense? Not on your life (or his). He mostly spars under K-1 rules or NHB in class, but he (like George before him) is a bit flamboyant and wanted to show that he could land whatever he wanted.

 

[Andrew Green]

The first thing that struck me were the earrings. I know you are being judged on content of the kata along with application. If I were judging the performance, she would be very disappointed.

I would consider it a disrespectful thing to do as an official, judge a person based on what you think they should be doing rather then what they are trying to do, at least when the spirit of the event is in their favour.

I suspect you would not want your students to go into a traditional tournament and lose point from XMA judges for not demonstrating any athleticism, or from kickboxers for having their heads high, chins out and hands at their ribs.

That was a very good performance within a XMA context, she was not attempting to do traditional karate and should not be judged as if she where.

 

[Twin Fist]

Let me start by saying that, as a rule, I DESPISE XMA stuff.

why? cuz most of them got no basics

Clohe Bruce does. I have seen her traditional forms and she is the 1 in 100 that are great martial artists and just do this because they can, not because its al they can do. Most of the kids doing XMA fall into this catogory

West Coast Demo Team, huh? thats very cool. I grew up reading about them in the old Karate Illustrated, and I had my little crushes on Cynthia Rothrock and Margie Betkie.....

I would read about John Chung and George Chung battling it out for the kata title.

But then I saw George Chung fight. He rocked. And him beating Chip Wright? thats says a LOT, cuz back in the day? Chip Wright was the bomb

For every Jean Frenette (theres a name from the past, whatever happened to that guy?) or george chung, or Clohe Bruce tho, there are 1000 people that think a backflip makes up for a crappy backstance.

 

[exile]

For every Jean Frenette (theres a name from the past, whatever happened to that guy?) or george chung, or Clohe Bruce tho, there are 1000 people that think a backflip makes up for a crappy backstance.

To me, this is the real problem—because of what it leads to in the MA marketplace.

I'm not interested in XMA at all, but not because there's anything inherently wrong with XMA itself—it's just a matter of taste, like enjoying tennis but having no interest in golf, or whether you prefer French to Chinese cooking, or vice-versa. The problem is not with XMA itself, but with the effect of the role of XMA in the marketplace. Markets don't just reflect taste; they also have a major role in creating taste. The way something is marketed, the 'weight' behind the marketing, has a big effect on people's perceptions; those perceptions translate into buying behavior, and you wind up with a self-perpetuating process that can lead to the domination of a particular product, or a particular idea of what the product should be like. I remember, some years back, seeing that Discovery Channel special on XMAs, and one of the things that struck me was the way the voice background guy intoned—twice or more, IIRC—that 'Craig Henningsten is the future of Karate'. I wondered at the time, why the hell is this particular kid the future of karate? There are probably thousands of kids out there who are technically as good—why him? But of course, the reason is that he's the next generation of Matthew Mullins' Sideswipe project and Mike Chat's vision of the MAs—that's why, according to the Discovery Channel, Craig H is so important: the special was pushing that particular kind of activity as the next logical step in the development of Karate. Not the revival of Karate as realistic self defense, not the new wave of detailed bunkai studies and reconnection with the Okinawan roots of the kata as keys to that revival, but the continuuous conversion of martial movements into extreme gymnastic performances. And the more the media promote that idea, the greater weight it has in coloring future participants' idea of what the MAs are all about, and the more it becomes important for MA schools to cater to that idea that the MAs are about martial spectacle rather than CQ fighting techniques. Which means, in the end, it gets harder and harder to find instruction in the MAs which stresses the latter, rather than the former. But what if the latter is what you want to study?

I have no problem with MAs as being big tents under which street self-defense, sport competition and 'martial acrobatics' all coexist... in principle; but it's unlikely to work out like that, nice as it would be if it did. Chloe Bruce may be an outstanding technical MAist; certainly Matt Mullins and Mike Chat both are. But what TF says in his post is true, and even more than that, eventually, the glitzification of TKD, Karate and other fighting arts will wind up leaving us all in the place where Chinese government-sanctioned Wushu already is. Flying Crane, one of our members, has written some excellent posts about this: the danger is that it will, one day, become almost impossible to find actual combat-oriented CMA instruction—the current regime certainly seems to be pushing in that direction. What worries me is that ultimately the other TMAs will wind up following suit, with TKD as Korean wushu, Karate Japanese wushu, and so on. I think we've already gone far enough in that direction that it's hard to find a dojang or dojo which emphasizes the SD component of those arts, or even gives it more than superficial lip service—and XMA is, I'm convinced, just another factor driving that tendency even faster. It's both a sign of, and a contributor to, something that doesn't bode well for instruction emphasizing the combat applicability of the MAs.

 

[seasoned]

I would consider it a disrespectful thing to do as an official, judge a person based on what you think they should be doing rather then what they are trying to do, at least when the spirit of the event is in their favour.

I suspect you would not want your students to go into a traditional tournament and lose point from XMA judges for not demonstrating any athleticism, or from kickboxers for having their heads high, chins out and hands at their ribs.

That was a very good performance within a XMA context, she was not attempting to do traditional karate and should not be judged as if she where.

I guess the Gi, her black belt, and the fact that it looked like a MA setting confused me. XMA is something I am not familiar with. It seems that sweat pants with string ties would have worked better. Why make it a MA thing if, in fact, it is not.

 

[DeLamar.J]

My main issue with XMA is the fact that the people who are impressing those with the untrained eye, are setting a example of what martial arts is. Its kind of like britney spears being a role model for the younger generation, and then dressing all skanky and then causing the younger generation to follow her lead because thats what is 'cool' thats what a 'lady' should look like in order to be respected.
Every performance pulls martial arts further and further away from what it really is, and will eventually mean the end of real applicable martial arts because champion XMA people are going to have the lable of 'master' or so called 'expert'. New people to the arts are not going to know any better until they , for lack of better words get there *** kicked.
The arts are going down a slippery slope, its very sad and it will only get worse.

 

[HM2PAC]

I don't see a problem with anything she did on the competition floor.

She was competing in XMA, not sparring, not Forms, not weapons.

There are people saying that because she excels in one area, the other areas are weak in her repertoire.

There are posters here who have seen her in other areas of competition and say she has legit skills in those areas.

I guess when you're at the top, you're nothing but a target.

 

[HM2PAC]

Does anyone have anything to say about her short tutorial here on a kick?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KeTeeq89H1M&NR=1

 

[Ninebird8]

Gosh, Twin Fist, you are really dating both yourself and me! LOL! I have been in kung fu a long time but all the people you mentioned were great. I saw George Chung fight many times and very good, but John Chung could never fight, at least not in tournaments? Also, people who relate Mr. TaeBo to just that have no idea. HE is a really good fighter both in and out of tournaments! I love the time Nasty Anderson came in on him with is only technique, a jumping backfist, and he was sent back flying with a perfectly planted side kick!!

I miss these old days, when I competed alot, and now as a kung fu judge. In those days, you did not back talk your judges or your instructors. However, this XMA lady reminds me alot of people with rubbery double hook swords etc. Back in the day, it was always debated if Cynthia Rothrock would ever actually fight Linda Denly, Arlene Limas, or other tough female fighters. I do not recall her ever fighting?

This girl is very good, but she needs to be flexible on both sides (I am 50 and can still do splits but had to work the heavy bag, do heavy leg training, and other drills to develop the power to go with the flexibility), and her high kicks while hopping around means nothing to me, and a good ground sweep or hit to the bottom leg would take care of that.

In all, I do respect her relative skills, but these type of people are much more ARTISTS than MARTIAL, which is what all of this, no matter what the style, should be about.

Just my personal opinion, as an old school traditionalist. I remember when Mortal Combat came out, and next thing we all saw were a multitude of people doing questionable martial techniques in musical or open forms to the music of Mortal Combat. Great stage show though....LOL!

 

[HM2PAC]

So her skills as demonstrated correlate to her being less of a martial artist, or a poor martial artist?

I fail to make the connection.

 

[Kwan Jang]

Exile, as per your norm, you have written a thought provoking post that was well articulated. In this case though, I disagree.

The reason is that the "-do" nature of the arts that were brought to the public in the late 19th and early 20th century have beat XMA to this by nearly a century. Looking at karate-do (and it's Korean step-children of TKD and TSD), it was already watered down into a "school children's art" from it's original Okinawan/Ryukyu kempo-jitsu roots. The kata bunkai you speak of was never part of the training for the masses and the way that most people train it is even less combat worthy. We are not just already in a state of "Japanese and Korean performance wushu", but this is actually the legacy that we came from and that we were always exposed to.

It's great that some schools. like Allen's, Stuart's, mine and a few others are back tracking the original combat intent of traditional basics and forms. I consider it as much a part of the ongoing evolution of effective combat martial arts as I do MMA and RBSD. The reality though is that a very small percentage of schools and instructors teach this way or even have any desire to teach this way and never will. It's funny in a way that this part of the evolution is coming from re-discovering what has been all but lost from the past, but I truly doubt that it will ever be a major part of the martial arts picture, especially to the general public or beginners. We can try and we can put out the good word, but it's to long and slow of a process to effectively reach the masses.

Just as I see MMA/NHB sparring as a natural evolution of competitive fighting, I see XMA as a natural evolution of the karate-do forms competition as a performance art and sport. There have always been these elements in the arts and it's natural for the performance sport and crowd to want to evolve. Some of them may eventually change focus as they (and their joints) age and may later become some of the small percentage that want to take the time to learn the kyusho and tuite bunkai.

 

[Brandon Fisher]

Though I do not approve of XMA being called true martial arts nor do I approve of it being allowed to be compared to traditional as it is in competitiion where both are being judged equally when it is apples to oranges really. XMA is movie martial arts and not much more really. I have seen some have a solid traditional background but for those few that have a solid base there are 5 to every 1 who does not and uses the flash to cover up the areas that are lacking which usually are basics. Find a good dancer or gymnist (especially gymnist) and I will show you someone who can do the very same thing with little practice.