Xing Yi Quan: Five element - Han Yanwu

[Xue Sheng]

Xing Yi Quan: Five element fist training (Beijing)

Han Yan Wu

 

[Xue Sheng]

Xing Yi Quan: 5 Element Linking Fist

 

[Xue Sheng]

Xingyiquan: Santi Shi

 

[CMyers0323]

This may not be the right thread to post in but does anyone have any book recommendations fot Wu Xing/Wu Hsing? After talking about it in another thread it seem like there's alot to learn about the Elemental strikes and philosophy. I've studied Xing Yi for some time and figured it's a good way to expand my knowledge on the elements

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

This may not be the right thread to post in but does anyone have any book recommendations fot Wu Xing/Wu Hsing? After talking about it in another thread it seem like there's alot to learn about the Elemental strikes and philosophy. I've studied Xing Yi for some time and figured it's a good way to expand my knowledge on the elements

Metal - use strike to hurt opponent's punching arm and kicking leg.
Wood - use long range kick/punch to attack.
Water - spin your body when respond to your opponent's attack.
Fire - use quick footwork to move around fast.
Earth - move in like a tank with strong defense.

I have used metal against wood onetime. I was a white belt student in a YMCA Karate class. The instructor's young brother just got his black belt in TKD. His brother challenged me in front of my Karate class. He threw many side kicks. I blocked all his side kicks and dropped my elbow on his instep at the same time. When he could not kick me anymore, I jumped in with a punch on his face and finished that fight. In the whole fight, I spent 99% of my effort tried to hurt his kicking leg (metal cut wood). I only threw 1 punch.

The earth fighters give me most of the trouble. In one Karate tournament, my opponent moved in inch by inch with strong defense. He blocked all my kicks/punches. After I had moved backward twice and out of the ring, I lost that fight.

This is water against fire. A throws punch at B. B spins his body, wraps A's arm, and takes B down. Water only makes waves when it's disturbed.

 

[CMyers0323]

Metal - use strike to hurt opponent's punching arm and kicking leg.
Wood - use long range kick/punch to attack.
Water - spin your body when respond to your opponent's attack.
Fire - use quick footwork to move around fast.
Earth - move in like a tank with strong defense.

I have used metal against wood onetime. I was a white belt student in a YMCA Karate class. The instructor's young brother just got his black belt in TKD. His brother challenged me in front of my Karate class. He threw many side kicks. I blocked all his side kicks and dropped my elbow on his instep at the same time. When he could not kick me anymore, I jumped in with a punch on his face and finished that fight. In the whole fight, I spent 99% of my effort tried to hurt his kicking leg (metal cut wood). I only threw 1 punch.

The earth fighters give me most of the trouble. In one Karate tournament, my opponent moved in inch by inch with strong defense. He blocked all my kicks/punches. After I had moved backward twice and out of the ring, I lost that fight.

This is water against fire. A throws punch at B. B spins his body, wraps A's arm, and takes B down. Water only makes waves when it's disturbed.

Thanks! That's cool in the Xing Yi I study Wood short range so it's cool to see different perspectives on it. I've also from other threads and then my own training have heard Tactic or maybe Principle wise Wood is short/ squeezing, metal is splitting/ breaking and such not sure if any of that sounds familiar for the Wu Xing.

Wow that's a cool story! I do use metal a fair amount usually against bigger opponents I've done iron palm for some years now so I can usually affect them and balance the size difference in that sense. Hopefully that guy learned something that day.

Oh wow yeah I get you there. I do say I have some trouble with Earth fighters. Although in my Xing yi we usually consider them grapplers. I just don't have much training in that.

Very cool! Sounds very Bagua like haha.

Do you know any books that would expand on these concepts? I can't seem to find Wu Xing Books. I have some Xing Yi ones and other books I have mention the elements but I haven't gotten to get one from Wu Xing yet

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Do you know any books that would expand on these concepts? ... with Earth fighters. Although in my Xing yi we usually consider them grapplers.

I have not seen any book that talk about 5 elements strategies. I wish someone can write a book about that.

Today when I deal with an earth person, I'll just grab/pull his arm and drag him in circle. Earth person doesn't move much. When he moves, he usually resists against the force. I can then take advantage on his resistance.

 

[CMyers0323]

I have not seen any book that talk about 5 elements strategies. I wish someone can write a book about that.

Today when I deal with an earth person, I'll just grab/pull his arm and drag him in circle. Earth person doesn't move much. When he moves, he usually resists against the force. I can then take advantage on his resistance.

Yeah I agree there. The info that is gone over usually is great but I'd enjoy that strategy part also oh wow yeah that's definitely good Tactic wise.

So you wouldn't happen to know any Wu Xing books then? I've seen some people talking about courses but I'd want to know more before subscribing to one.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

So you wouldn't happen to know any Wu Xing books then?

Most of the 5 elements books are talking about health that has nothing to do with combat.

 

[CMyers0323]

Most of the 5 elements books are talking about health that has nothing to do with combat.

Yeah I noticed that as well. I haven't seen any combat focused ones. I've been searching for more info on the elements combat wise but haven't had much luck

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Yeah I noticed that as well. I haven't seen any combat focused ones. I've been searching for more info on the elements combat wise but haven't had much luck

In fighting, you try to apply the following:

1. Metal against wood.
2. Wood against earth.
3. Earth against water.
4. Water against fire.
5. Fire against metal.

1. Metal change into water.
2. Water change into wood.
3. Wood change into fire.
4. Fire change into earth.
5. Earth change into metal.

The question is how?

For example, for 1. Metal change into water.

You can always combine hard arm block (metal) with soft arm wrap (water). If you can mix in metal (hard) and water (soft), you can confuse your opponent.

 

[CMyers0323]

In fighting, you try to apply the following:

1. Metal against wood.
2. Wood against earth.
3. Earth against water.
4. Water against fire.
5. Fire against metal.

1. Metal change into water.
2. Water change into wood.
3. Wood change into fire.
4. Fire change into earth.
5. Earth change into metal.

The question is how?

For example, for 1. Metal change into water.

You can always combine hard arm block (metal) with soft arm wrap (water). If you can mix in metal (hard) and water (soft), you can confuse your opponent.

Thank you very much for this. I was taught some of this stuff when my Sifu was still around but never got it in writing to have fully Memorized. I'm glad this stuff is more widely known.

When speaking with other members on this forum there was talk about other Elemental techniques besides the primary splitting,crushing fist, etc. do you by any chance know any? That also has been hard to find. Whenever Xing Yi atleast is shown online usually its just the main 5 hands nothing else

 

[Xue Sheng]

Xingyi: How I came to love five element theory - Martial Journal

Tim Cartmell on Xingyiquan’s Five Elements

 

[CMyers0323]

Xingyi: How I came to love five element theory - Martial Journal

Tim Cartmell on Xingyiquan’s Five Elements

Thanks for this! I'll check this out!

 

[marvin8]

Yeah I noticed that as well. I haven't seen any combat focused ones. I've been searching for more info on the elements combat wise but haven't had much luck

This tai chi Five Element combat perspective seems more useful.

In Tai Chi Chuan, the 5 Elements refer to footwork methods and strategies.
My teacher related the elements as:

Metal – Forward
Wood – Backward
Water – Left
Fire – Right
Earth – Center (non-movement)

Using this for fighting:

1) Forward Movement (Metal):
Is Strong Against – Maintaining Centre (Earth) & Backward Movement (Wood)
If the opponent tries to maintain his ground whilst you move forward, he will present an easy target, whilst if he tries moving backwards, he is putting himself on the back-foot and you control the engagement.
Is Defeated By – Left Movement (Water) & Right Movement (Fire)
Pretty obvious - if you attack forward and your opponent moves out of your line of intent, he can enter from the sides where you are weaker.

2) Backward Movement (Wood):
Is Strong Against – Maintaining Center (Earth) & Left Movement (Water)
If your opponent maintains his position and shows no intention to come forward, then backing off can provide you either with an escape route or time to rethink strategy.
With regards to Left Movement - if we assume a right-foot lead stance, if the opponent moves to our left, attemping to attack on the inside, moving back can disrupt his angle of attack and force him to reconsider. Similarly, if we are in a left-lead stance, and the opponent moves to his left, attempting the same approach as above, then we can defeat his intention.
Is Defeated By – Right Movement (Fire) & Forward Movement (Metal)
Again, if we assume a right-lead stance, and the opponent attacks from our right, movement back does not 'bring our weapons to bare' on him as he approaches our outer gate. He can close in on us if we don't adjust our own angle.
As stated above, if your opponent moves forward and we move backwards, we are allowing ourselves to be controlled and are not taking advantage of his forward movement.

3) Maintaining Centre (Earth):
Is Strong Against – Left Movement (Water) & Right Movement (Fire)
If the opponent is trying to circle us, maintain our position but keep him in our sights (ie, turning on the spot). Then we can look back at the classics regarding "when my opponent doesn't attack, I don't attack - when my opponent attacks, my counter hits first"
Is Defeated By – Forward Movement (Metal) & Backward Movement (Wood)
Again, if you maintain your ground when the opponent advances, you risk getting run down.
If you allow your opponent to back off, he goes out of your reach, and you are missing the opportunity to dominate his movement and overcome him.

4) Right Movement (Fire):
Is Strong Against – Forward Movement (Metal) & Backward Movement (Wood)
If the opponent moves forward, then moving out of his line of intent, either left or right, can put you in a dominant position, where can cannot defend.
Assuming your opponent has a left lead stance, as he moves back, approach him from your right, and you can close him down from his outer gate.
Is Defeated By – Left Movement (Water) & Maintaining Centre (Earth)
If you move to your right, and your opponent moves to your left, you end up circling**, and no advancement is made towards defeating him.
Again, if you move right and your opponent is maintaining his ground whilst observing you, he is lying in wait for you to commit.

5) Left Movement (Water):
Is Strong Against – Right Movement (Fire) & Forward Movement (Metal)
**Following on from above, circling can also be a positive thing, in that it allows you time to assess your opponent.
Regarding the opponents forward movement, it's the same as above regarding our right movement.
Is Defeated By – Maintaining Centre (Earth) & Backward Movement (Wood)
Again, it's the counter-side of above. If you are attempting to change your angle of approach, whilst the opponent keeps his centre ground, he can keep you in his sights whilst you expend energy trying to get the upper hand.
Regarding backwards movement, if you are moving to the sides, and fail to take the opportunity to chase him down once you get your angle, his backwards movement will quickly negate any possible advantage you may have achieved.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Why this is correct?

Water – Left
Fire – Right

Why this is not correct?

Water – Right
Fire – Left

 

[CMyers0323]

This tai chi Five Element combat perspective seems more useful.

Wow thanks this is really cool! I've never heard of assigning directions to the elements well combat wise. I know they will say north south east and west can be Elemental assigned but that was mainly for Qigong not combat. The more I learn about the elements the cooler they are haha. This reminds me of a post I had made about a year ago. This master spoke about using the elements in hardening. Where he could make his body like which ever element. I'll post the link

I believe I mentioned it was around 6:20 where he speaks about this

 

[Oily Dragon]

Yeah I noticed that as well. I haven't seen any combat focused ones. I've been searching for more info on the elements combat wise but haven't had much luck

This tends to be buried in either class instruction or in a few cases really good books.

And it's not uncommon for people to differ on what's what. The Wu Xing itself has a very strict structure but how it's applied varies greatly BUT how KFW described it is accurate in a broad sense. ie Wood always controls Earth, but what that means in practice differs between arts.

I'll dig through my library to find more stuff on other arts, but I'll leave the Xing Yi element stuff to others with more depth.

This is advanced stuff fyi, and always remember the ultimate goal (as with the animals) is to blend this all together seamlessly. Not be a "wood fighter" or "Crane" fighter. This is actually what Tai Chi Chuan implies, from a Chinese metaphysical pov.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

This tai chi Five Element combat perspective seems more useful.

Who is right and who is wrong If you say,

Water – Left
Fire – Right

and I say,

Water – Right
Fire – Left

Also, what's the combat meaning of this?

Someone had 1 hour workshop working on "Earth – Center (non-movement 中定)". It's hard to believe that anyone can train center for 1 hour.

 

[CMyers0323]

This tends to be buried in either class instruction or in a few cases really good books.

And it's not uncommon for people to differ on what's what. The Wu Xing itself has a very strict structure but how it's applied varies greatly BUT how KFW described it is accurate in a broad sense. ie Wood always controls Earth, but what that means in practice differs between arts.

I'll dig through my library to find more stuff on other arts, but I'll leave the Xing Yi element stuff to others with more depth.

This is advanced stuff fyi, and always remember the ultimate goal (as with the animals) is to blend this all together seamlessly. Not be a "wood fighter" or "Crane" fighter. This is actually what Tai Chi Chuan implies, from a Chinese metaphysical pov.

Yeah I mean even the assigning of animals we spoke about Wood being crane is different from what I was taught it being Mantis. Even snake was a wood option. I saw tiger assigned to wood which I thought was the strangest thing haha.

Is there books or articles where I can study wu xing in martial arts terms? I mean generally as well would be great but I think starting off the martial arts wu xing would be great.

Yeah that would be great!

Yeah u always thought this stuff had alot of depth and well as you said it wasn't Basic stuff but I figured that was the good part to it. When my instructor originally introduced me to the elements/xing yi I completely changed my training lol. For sure I remember being told that as well. Mastering them individually at first is fine but then if you don't blend them it's really an incomplete art.