I wondered where you'd been lately QS. For what it's worth, I'm still fighting the same battle. Ever since my training partner split for Cali last Spring, I've been totally on my own. There were a couple of his students around for a while, even one Primary Level... but you know how it is. Their loyalty was really to their Sifu, not to me, the old Si-Pak. So when life got busy, they were gone. Now I do manage to keep a couple of lower level students of my own. But they come and go. None so far have ever stuck it out long enough to train anything like the upper level Chi-sau sections and such. So I'm just forgetting all that stuff. Seems like a shame. On the other hand they do keep me working on my basics... and that's very important. Just thought you should know you aren't alone.
WT dropouts
- Thread starter yak sao
- Start date
I wondered where you'd been lately QS. For what it's worth, I'm still fighting the same battle. Ever since my training partner split for Cali last Spring, I've been totally on my own. There were a couple of his students around for a while, even one Primary Level... but you know how it is. Their loyalty was really to their Sifu, not to me, the old Si-Pak. So when life got busy, they were gone. Now I do manage to keep a couple of lower level students of my own. But they come and go. None so far have ever stuck it out long enough to train anything like the upper level Chi-sau sections and such. So I'm just forgetting all that stuff. Seems like a shame. On the other hand they do keep me working on my basics... and that's very important. Just thought you should know you aren't alone.
qwksilver61
Black Belt
In my honest opinion,I believe peoples attention span is much shorter than ever,Why? Just sit down with your friends and watch a new film,then watch a old film containing all the elements of surprise and suspense,unless everything happens instantaneously they will bored out of their skulls.Most people want instant proof,and instant results and nothing too mundane or repetitious.Sad no one really wants to get skill,and more like "Fast-foo" I pity the Foo!:soapbox: thanks for understanding? BTW..was that you training in Austin with Sifu Jeff Webb,if so congrats,I am jealous...
my instructors (father/son) left WT and joined up with klaus brand. who also left WT from what i gather. i've seen some pics (my teacher and his son) with some of the guys mentioned in this thread. most of klaus brands instructors are ex-WT guys, too. not sure how far he himself got, though. i'm a n00b, but it's fun so far.
BTW..was that you training in Austin with Sifu Jeff Webb,if so congrats,I am jealous...
Not sure where you were looking. If you go to the NVTO website (see my signature) and look under "NVTO in the news" for the pics of the "2011 summer camp", I'm the blondish guy in the black tank-top next to Master Jeff. Yes, I still have my hair for now. At 56, everything else seems to be going to pot though!
BTW, dont be "jealous".... but do attend one of Jeff's camps. I thoroughly enjoyed the last one!
qwksilver61
Black Belt
you still look like that guy in "Dynamic Wing Tsun!" Question, what is the story behind Sifu Robert Jacquet? What happened to Keith Sonnenberg?BTW Don't Fret,I get my rice crispies every morning when In get out of bed (joints popping),and yes,no matter how much it hurts it is mind over matter.
Robert was my training partner here until he moved to California last June. Keith lives on the other side of town. He's still active, but he stayed with LT's WT organization, so he can't even talk to me anymore. Too bad. We were friends for a long time. There's another guy Neil, who also lives far away from me who originally started WT with Robert, but then switched to EBMAS and teaches privately. And then there's Phil Bradley somewhere around here, selling online training (!), and Don Gross down in Tucson. They both started in WT under Robert before moving on. So actually, there are a handful of ex-WT people in the area, except they are kept apart by politics and ego. It's a shame. I'll train with anybody if I can get the time.
KamonGuy2
Master of Arts
Its a lovely sentiment, but ultimately misguided. Like any sport or pursuit of wisdom - if you want to progress, you will have to pay or sacrifice things. It does annoy me when people whinge about having to pay to learn martial arts. It is the simple truth of this world - if you want something, you pay for it. People who go to private schools will do better than those who go to public schools (on average). It sucks, but thats the way of the world. Sure its nice to train out of class with like minded guys, but if you want to learn from someone who does martial arts as their career, you should expect to hand over money. Im lucky that Im in an organisation which has very reasonable fees and with an instructor who is extremely generous. To put it in perspective - if you were a tennis player and you wanted to learn from Pete Sampras, you would be forking out a lot of money!!
Im not a fan of LT in general after meeting him a couple of times. Yet, people may leave their organisation for a variety of reasons and I think its unfair to discuss the morality of their instructors etc, without knowing them first hand.
I agree largely with KamonGuy2 (hey, are you Big Steve?). I also think that most people know (or learn) from fairly early on that WT from Leung Ting is not the cheapest option. No one forces these people to train for years and hand over their money ;-)
There are many reasons why people/groups leave the WT organization, but what always makes me laugh is how often people leave to set up their own group and it is clear that one of the biggest motivations to do so is to take the money themselves (without needing to hand it over to someone else).
It should also be said that 'where' you train WT determines the fees. Here in Hungary the fees are not outrageous - Leung Ting is giving a seminar this weekend in Budapest and the cost is about $90 (for two, three-hour sessions). This cost also includes lunch :-D
There are many reasons why people/groups leave the WT organization, but what always makes me laugh is how often people leave to set up their own group and it is clear that one of the biggest motivations to do so is to take the money themselves (without needing to hand it over to someone else).
It should also be said that 'where' you train WT determines the fees. Here in Hungary the fees are not outrageous - Leung Ting is giving a seminar this weekend in Budapest and the cost is about $90 (for two, three-hour sessions). This cost also includes lunch :-D
@WT Chap and KamonGuy2:
Welcome to the forum guys. In case you haven't noticed, we are a little different from those other forums here at MartialTalk. We really are a pretty friendly bunch, and except for a little joking around, we don't trash each others organization's or sifus. Not much, anyway. Some of us here are former students of GM Leung Ting, or students of some of his former students, like Emin, for example. If we left, it was for various reasons. Sometimes financial, somtimes personal, whatever. To be honest, I don't know of anybody who trained personally/privately under him, as I did many years ago, who doubts his skill and knowledge when it comes to WingTsun. He' the GM of WT. That's the short of it.
@WTChap: if you're from Hungary, you must be one of Norbert's guys. It would be great to get some input from you, especially on technical issues relevant to the WC/VT/WTsystem as a whole, and to the WT branch in particular. I've never had the financial resources to travel abroad to study WT but can't help but notice that each region has a slghtly different take on WT. There's the Hong Kong way, the American Way, KK's EWTO "flavor" and you guys with Norbert Maday's EEWTO. Each is a bit different, so I hope you decide to hang around here at MartialTalk and share some ideas.
@KamonGuy2: We used to have a guy on here just called KamonGuy. He was grumpy, cantankerous, and really impatient with some of the garbage that people would post. He was also a strong advocate for the Kamon system and cross training between WC and BJJ. He finally left us and moved on, but for a long time he was one of our major posters here, and his input was missed when he drifted away. Just thought you should know that when you took on the name KamonGuy2 you stepped into some big shoes! Good to have you with us!
Welcome to the forum guys. In case you haven't noticed, we are a little different from those other forums here at MartialTalk. We really are a pretty friendly bunch, and except for a little joking around, we don't trash each others organization's or sifus. Not much, anyway. Some of us here are former students of GM Leung Ting, or students of some of his former students, like Emin, for example. If we left, it was for various reasons. Sometimes financial, somtimes personal, whatever. To be honest, I don't know of anybody who trained personally/privately under him, as I did many years ago, who doubts his skill and knowledge when it comes to WingTsun. He' the GM of WT. That's the short of it.
@WTChap: if you're from Hungary, you must be one of Norbert's guys. It would be great to get some input from you, especially on technical issues relevant to the WC/VT/WTsystem as a whole, and to the WT branch in particular. I've never had the financial resources to travel abroad to study WT but can't help but notice that each region has a slghtly different take on WT. There's the Hong Kong way, the American Way, KK's EWTO "flavor" and you guys with Norbert Maday's EEWTO. Each is a bit different, so I hope you decide to hang around here at MartialTalk and share some ideas.
@KamonGuy2: We used to have a guy on here just called KamonGuy. He was grumpy, cantankerous, and really impatient with some of the garbage that people would post. He was also a strong advocate for the Kamon system and cross training between WC and BJJ. He finally left us and moved on, but for a long time he was one of our major posters here, and his input was missed when he drifted away. Just thought you should know that when you took on the name KamonGuy2 you stepped into some big shoes! Good to have you with us!
KamonGuy2
Master of Arts
I do indeed... For I is he!!! I have returned... A lot of crazy stuff happened (which I cant discuss openly on here for legal reasons) so I was unable to post during that time. I couldnt remember my password so Ive created a new account. I was never grumpy, just frustrated at those guys who still insist they would never go to the ground...
@geezer
Indeed, I train with one of Maday Norbert's instructors. I've been lucky that my work has taken me into Asia, the US and all over Europe, so it is nice that I have been able to see MAs practiced in various places, including numerous WT groups. ;-)
I agree, there really does seem to be a 'flavor' to the art based on where you are learning it. Maday Norbert is very dedicated to teaching Leung Ting's art as it is given to him via Hong Kong - so nothing added or subtracted in terms of technique, form, theory, concepts, tactics, etc. But perhaps the flavor for our region is more to do with the training methods - in our class we have a good amount of pad work and bag work, and we often wear padded chest protectors so we can practice drills and exercises that involve making some real contact/hitting through the training partner. ;-)
At the higher grades, the training looks really quite tough, very physical. But this is part of the regional approach (IMO). Here in Hungary for example, there is a very strong tradition of Kempo, Kyokushinkai Karate and Krav Maga (the founder was Hungarian by birth), and those guys train HARD! So this kinda sets the pace for other MAs that have a combative/self defense nature. Add to this a growing popularity for MMA and BJJ, and well, you get the picture - Hungarians like to hit each other :-D
@KamonGuy 2
... so for you this is the second coming! Hope you and the Croydon Kamon team are doing well - give my regards to those who might remember me. And if I can ask, when did you get the chance to meet Leung Ting? I didn't think he made it to the UK that often these days.
Indeed, I train with one of Maday Norbert's instructors. I've been lucky that my work has taken me into Asia, the US and all over Europe, so it is nice that I have been able to see MAs practiced in various places, including numerous WT groups. ;-)
I agree, there really does seem to be a 'flavor' to the art based on where you are learning it. Maday Norbert is very dedicated to teaching Leung Ting's art as it is given to him via Hong Kong - so nothing added or subtracted in terms of technique, form, theory, concepts, tactics, etc. But perhaps the flavor for our region is more to do with the training methods - in our class we have a good amount of pad work and bag work, and we often wear padded chest protectors so we can practice drills and exercises that involve making some real contact/hitting through the training partner. ;-)
At the higher grades, the training looks really quite tough, very physical. But this is part of the regional approach (IMO). Here in Hungary for example, there is a very strong tradition of Kempo, Kyokushinkai Karate and Krav Maga (the founder was Hungarian by birth), and those guys train HARD! So this kinda sets the pace for other MAs that have a combative/self defense nature. Add to this a growing popularity for MMA and BJJ, and well, you get the picture - Hungarians like to hit each other :-D
@KamonGuy 2
... so for you this is the second coming!
Hope you and the Croydon Kamon team are doing well - give my regards to those who might remember me. And if I can ask, when did you get the chance to meet Leung Ting? I didn't think he made it to the UK that often these days.Thanks for the insights. Here in the States, the initial WT group (of which I was a part) tried to keep our WT exactly as we were taught by our sifu, LT, but honestly, we didn't have a lot of hard-core fighters in out group, so some realism was lost. Then Emin came over and added that element, but also like his sifu, KK and a lot of the EWTO guys, he made a lot of changes in the system. Then there were some big organizational splits. I left martial arts altogether for many years before returning to WT/WC/VT. Now I train under an independent, formerly master-ranked WT guy who once was my si-dei under LT who also trained with KK in Germany. We both have worked with Emin in the past so I have some sense of the different "flavors" I mentioned. Although I have never met anybody from the EEWTO, from what I've seen on Youtube, I have to agree with you. Norbert and his top guys look really hard-core!
KamonGuy2
Master of Arts
@geezer
@KamonGuy 2
... so for you this is the second coming!
Lets just say, I get around.... Ive met a few of the famous (and infamous) wing chunners out there - Alan Gibson, Shaun Rawcliffe, Alan Orr, James Sinclair, Ip chun, Ip Chin, Gary Lam, William Cheung, Wan Kam Leung, etc. There are still a few Ive yet to meet in person, but I love to get around. I rarely give an opinion on styles or instructors I havent trained with. I like to get a taste of things first hand.
Croydon is still going strong with a lot of great characters down there
I hope you're enjoying your training over there - sounds like you found a good school
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