WT dropouts

[yak sao]

So many people have left LT/KK over the years. They rule with such a heavy hand they do it to themselves.
Of those who have left their organization and set out on their own, who do you feel left with the biggest piece of the pie?

 

[geezer]

Good question. I don't even know who half the guys are... WT rebels we used to call them, before I ended up training under one. In this country (USA) Emin is a great fighter, but he ain't cheap or easy to train with, always on tour like a rockstar. Also, I never got the sense that he worried too much about the traditional stuff... the advanced forms, weapons sets and such. He seems more focused on the practical, from what I hear. That and making a bundle on seminars all over the world.

Who else is there? Allan Fong? I met him once over twenty years ago. Seemed like a good guy, and he reached Master level, but I don't know if he got the whole WT system or not. LT dished the stuff out with an eye-dropper... and charged an incredible amount for the upper level stuff.

The guy I train under now, NVTO Sifu Jeff Webb is technically superb. And he's plenty tough too, but at about 5'6" he'll never be a fighting monster like Emin or Victor Gutierrez. That's fine with me. I can't keep up with what he's teaching me as it is... especially since my local training partner just moved to California. Right now I'm really hurting for a good training partner! So I'm doing a lot of conditioning and basics with a few lower ranking students.

What about the rest of you WT refugees. What's your experience?

 

[yak sao]

As you know, I trained under Emin for 10 years and you're right, he was mostly all about the practical side of it. I did learn up through BT with him but his big forte' was always the fighting aspect. I've heard through the grapevine that he got the knives before the split by going behind KK's back and learning directly from LT. Rumor? who knows? He is more into the Escrima side of weapons anyway.

Si-Fu Allan Fong told me he learned the knives from LT before he moved here in the 80's from HK. He paid for it by working with LT to help him edit the book Wing Tsun Kuen. Si-Fu Fong is very much into the traditional aspects of WT and very detail oriented.
Between the 2 of them I have had very much a yin-yang view to my training.

 

[Svemocn1vidar]

This curse is spreading as far as i know. Many have left LT/KK,and now,many left Emin as well. My info says that he lost couple of schools in Hungary,our own in Serbia ( he practically banned us as we couldnt pay what Master asked for ),plus,his most important student from Turkey/Istanbul left as well. The reasons are always the same. High prices,way too expensive for no particular reason.
Indeed as Yak Sao said,Master Emin is somewhat a "rockstar" ,travelling around,touring,collect money. Same thing for those that trained him KK/LT. The reason he left was money they asked him to pay,and now he's doing the same thing to his student. It's like a sickness that you inherit or something..

And Master Emin did finish his WT with Leung Ting,that's what i heard as well. KK refused to teach him the whole system.

 

[chain punch]

I guess the problem is supply and demand. If people are still daft enough to pay the high prices then LT/KK et al will continue to charge silly prices. For them it is no longer about student or self development and improvement but building a financial legacy. Perhaps you are all right that chasing the pound with such drive is a disease. Shame as I heard very good things recently regarding the high level of skill possessed by KK.

 

[geezer]

Famous Chinese wisdom directly from the mouth of LT explaining why we should pay his incredibly high fees. "I cheat you once, so you can cheat others a thousand times". In other words, we over-paid him and then were expected to overcharge our own students as many times as we could!!! True story. LOL.

Unfortunately I am what LT calls "One of those idiots..." who only asks what my students can afford. So I could not continue my training with him. But I always will respect his skill in WT.

 

[Eric_H]

There was that italian guy Sergio who was under LT, then Chi Sim (hoffman) then different Chi Sim (some guy in HK) now i think he's in that Black Flag group...

Heard he actually has a bunch of schools.

 

[zepedawingchun]

After reading all of this cheating this and charging too much money for that, it's no wonder Wing Chun's name and reputation is looked upon with nothing but distrust. After hearing about their greed by LT, his followers, and those who have left him continueing the practice, why would anyone want to join their Wing Chun ranks? I'm sure there are a couple of others doing the same, but to me, you're just shooting yourself in the foot being that way.

As martial artists, I thought we were supposed to be helping and improving people's way of life (and ours) by our instruction and teaching and not ripping them off to satisfy our own greed. We should be giving more to the people we teach (instruction and quality of life), than what we get in return (money). I hope the people talked about in this thread are more of the excepton than the rule. I know my Sifu is not like that and glad I found him so many years ago.

 

[yak sao]

Here is my problem with WT.
Not the quality. The quality of instruction and the material being taught is quite good.
Not the expense. And yes it is very expensive. But if the market can bear the price there is always going to be someone willing to pay. Besides, it is my understanding that WC was always expensive because the sifu had less disciples and so had to charge more money to make a living.
My problem with WT is the unrealistic waiting periods to learn advanced material. There are people who have been going at this for decades and have yet to learn the entire system.

 

[Xue Sheng]

OK I am not sure who LT and KK are but after reading this I was apparently rather lucky.

My sifu does not charge much, is a student of Ip Ching and as far as I can tell very good at Wing Chun.

 

[wtxs]

Here is my problem with WT.
Not the quality. The quality of instruction and the material being taught is quite good.
Not the expense. And yes it is very expensive. But if the market can bear the price there is always going to be someone willing to pay. Besides, it is my understanding that WC was always expensive because the sifu had less disciples and so had to charge more money to make a living.
My problem with WT is the unrealistic waiting periods to learn advanced material. There are people who have been going at this for decades and have yet to learn the entire system.

I feel your pain my fellow WC brother, this greed monster spans the history of mankind and showing no sign of slowing down.

Truism ... buyer be aware.

 

[zepedawingchun]

OK I am not sure who LT and KK are but after reading this I was apparently rather lucky.

My sifu does not charge much, is a student of Ip Ching and as far as I can tell very good at Wing Chun.

LT = Leung Ting

KK = Keith Kernspecht (not sure it's spelled right)

 

[Xue Sheng]

LT = Leung Ting

KK = Keith Kernspecht (not sure it's spelled right)

Cool

Now all this talk about Leung Ting, Keith R. Kernspecht and Emin Boztepe makes sense

Thanks

 

[yak sao]

Sorry, wasn't trying to be vague. Just a lousy typist....and I wasn't sure how to spell Kernsphect either

 

[geezer]

After hearing about their greed by LT, his followers, and those who have left him continueing the practice, why would anyone want to join their Wing Chun ranks?

Honestly, I've never met KK or most of the EWTO "rebels" who split away from him. As to why I followed LT? I was young and impressionable when I first met him in 1980. And I still believe he has very high level kung fu. As to why I continue studying in the same kind of WC, but outside of his WT organization... well I've found a teacher from the same lineage who is both a skilled practitioner and generous with his instruction. Not inexpensive, but honest and fair.

Incidently, my current instructor has very positive things to say about KK. He feels that what KK taught him was worth every penny and more.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Sorry, wasn't trying to be vague. Just a lousy typist....and I wasn't sure how to spell Kernsphect either

No worries I didn't think you were trying to be vague, your post cleared it all up for me, thanks

 

[chain punch]

Any one on here trained with KK? A training partner of mine's instructor trained with him several years back and said his skill was very impressive. So much so he had been given the moniker 'Ghost' in relation to attacking air and his high levels of sensitivity.

 

[Padawan.U.K]

I train WT and am enjoying it at the moment, class prices are reasonable but i find £30 for grading to be a bit steep. My regional instructor, who does all the gradings, has crossed hands with K.K and he did indeed use the term"ghost" when describing him, I was also told that he had remarkable hip movements for a guy of his age, or any for that matter.

 

[qwksilver61]

Hurting for a real training partner is right...I simply gave up for a couple of years.It seems the only people I could find were the ones who had their own agenda.The last two fellas had severe back injuries,so I just stopped.now I'm trying to get with it after a bout with depression,It's hard to give up the things that are you.I gave up surfing after our group fell apart,biking after my buddy took up sailing.So now I'm trying to come up for air and reignite my passion for Wing Tzun.I hate training alone,bores the hell out of me.Hopefully the up and coming seminar will give me the fire I need.Pardon me if I posted in the wrong place.....This was in response to finding a training partner.

 

[altbus1]

I think I'm one of the lucky guy's who have found a teacher that isn't to expensife. He also left his organisation because of the fee's he had to pay when opening a school. Therefore I think he doesn't mention the organisation he was with.
Also I like his traditional style so for now I'm having the time of my life...