Would you have taught differently? If so, how?

[Infinite]

I love it when you talk nerdy.

Stop that your stealing my schtick to get rep points when ever she has them to give

and sadly I get what she was saying la sigh former tier 1 routing engineer.

course now I'm a security architect so we all go someplace.

 

[bluemtn]

I love it when you talk nerdy.

Carol's not nerdy- just smarter than us when it comes to those sorts of things! If she didn't know what she does, where would she be now, I wonder? Sorry- I'll NEVER get off topic again! I promise!

 

[Carol]

Carol's not nerdy- just smarter than us when it comes to those sorts of things!

Nah, I'm nerdy. Geeky too.

If she didn't know what she does, where would she be now, I wonder?

I'd be FIRED!!!

 

[bluemtn]

Nah, I'm nerdy. Geeky too.



I'd be FIRED!!!

We still like you, irregardless of what you consider yourself to be!

 

[Kacey]

Nah, I'm nerdy. Geeky too.



I'd be FIRED!!!

The real question is - would you have been hired in the first place?

Okay, back to the topic of the thread... students are individuals and should be treated as such. Yes, discipline needs to exist, and yes, a certain amount of standardization needs to be in place - but that should not prevent an instructor from meeting the needs of students who don't fit the standardization; that is a fault far more with the instructor - and his/her instructor - than anyone else. Yes, many people were not trained this way - but there comes a time when you must discard traditional methods if they don't work, and the situation Ceicei described is clearly an instance in which traditional methods are ineffective, to the detriment of the student described, the other students in the class (and how likely will they be to ask questions in the future, I wonder?), and the class/club/school as a whole.

 

[tellner]

Once again, is the teacher there for the students, or are the students there for the teacher? The answer to that one question determines what sort of school it is. In this case, the answer was obvious, and the student did exactly the right thing.

 

[exile]

Ceicei, a question if you would.......

Was the student: A. slow
B. hard of hearing or deaf
c. Very intelligent but thinks differently than others
D. other

The reason is ask is that I am hard of hearing, wear aids in both ears and I do have problems in group settings because of back ground noise and other things.

I have a student that is a lawyer, he is very intelligent but has a lot of trouble in class because of the way he looks at things. His grasp of some very basic forms, self defense etc gets very twisted and it confuses and frustrates him a lot.

I have another student, while very willing is a little slow.

I have to handle them all differently to get my point across. Anyway, in your original scenario you didn't say why the student was having trouble just the she was. So could you clear this up for me because obviously I'm not getting it.

Okay, back to the topic of the thread... students are individuals and should be treated as such. Yes, discipline needs to exist, and yes, a certain amount of standardization needs to be in place - but that should not prevent an instructor from meeting the needs of students who don't fit the standardization; that is a fault far more with the instructor - and his/her instructor - than anyone else. Yes, many people were not trained this way - but there comes a time when you must discard traditional methods if they don't work, and the situation Ceicei described is clearly an instance in which traditional methods are ineffective, to the detriment of the student described, the other students in the class (and how likely will they be to ask questions in the future, I wonder?), and the class/club/school as a whole.

These two posts are getting at the same critical thing—the fact that an instructor who wants to teach (as opposed to just lecture) has to take into account the fact that every individual has specific strengths and weaknesses that they bring to the task of learning. In using the work `weakness', you understand I hope I'm making no judgments except the obvious one involving the ease/difficulty scale: an impairment of the sort Wade describes in his hearing, and which I'm finding more and more in my own, is going to make things harder, not easier, no matter who you are or what you're doing, pretty much. A good teacher will try to address the student's problems in a way which works `around' that student's particular weaknesses. When I taught skiing, for example, I found that some students were excessively fearful; getting them to confront the fall line, even on an easy slope, requires a different approach than that needed for a student who lacks the coordination to project his/her weight from one ski to the other to get the turn going. It was assumed that you would have as many different obstacles to overcome, as an instructor, as there were students in you class (maybe more!). I'd have lasted exactly ten minutes on the hill if I'd done what this particular instructor did.

Harshness has no more place in a contemporary North American dojo/dojang than a ruler across the knuckles does for a student having trouble with multiplication in grade school. I'm not making a judgment about other times and places. But there's no excuse for that sort of attitude now, here.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Once again, is the teacher there for the students, or are the students there for the teacher? The answer to that one question determines what sort of school it is. In this case, the answer was obvious, and the student did exactly the right thing.

I understand an instructor getting rid of a student that refuses to do the work.
Sean

 

[Cruentus]

The problem is the whole "I don't have time for this" and "you shouldn't be here" comments. If the student was beligerent and inturrupting class, I could understand telling the student that this is taking away from the other students, and that the question will have to wait until after class. But in what circumstance would it be O.K. in any classroom setting to tell a student in front of everyone that "you shouldn't be here,"??

We don't know the circumstance. Obviously this situation is way worse if the student has an impairment, like a hearing impairment for example. At that point everyone in the entire class should have grown a set and walked out. But maybe the student has a history of being a "problem student." Well, that makes the instructors behavior a little more understandable, yet still unacceptable. If you are going to kick a student out of your program, the professional thing to do would be to do this in private and not in front of everyone.

So in any case, the instructors behavior was unacceptable, and the student shouldn't waste his/her money. And martial arts students shouldn't get caught up in the faux-ethics of the pseudo-traditional martial arts world, and put up with things that they wouldn't ordinarily put up with in the real world.

 

[exile]

...the faux-ethics of the pseudo-traditional martial arts world...

Beautiful phrase!—it captures exactly what I was trying to get at about the importation of a culturally accepted harshness from one time and place to a radically different culture—our own—where that kind of behavior makes no sense. Tokugawa castle-era ethics belong in the Tokugawa castle era...

 

[jks9199]

The problem is the whole "I don't have time for this" and "you shouldn't be here" comments. If the student was beligerent and inturrupting class, I could understand telling the student that this is taking away from the other students, and that the question will have to wait until after class. But in what circumstance would it be O.K. in any classroom setting to tell a student in front of everyone that "you shouldn't be here,"??

We don't know the circumstance. Obviously this situation is way worse if the student has an impairment, like a hearing impairment for example. At that point everyone in the entire class should have grown a set and walked out. But maybe the student has a history of being a "problem student." Well, that makes the instructors behavior a little more understandable, yet still unacceptable. If you are going to kick a student out of your program, the professional thing to do would be to do this in private and not in front of everyone.

So in any case, the instructors behavior was unacceptable, and the student shouldn't waste his/her money. And martial arts students shouldn't get caught up in the faux-ethics of the pseudo-traditional martial arts world, and put up with things that they wouldn't ordinarily put up with in the real world.

Over all, I agree with the folks saying that the instructor definitely could have handled this better, given the scant details we've got here. (Details that are missing could effect my opinion, like if the student is having problems every class, or is holding up training until they get the name of the technique. And tone of voice could be an issue, too.)

But -- I've also told students more than once to shut up, stop trying to "understand" and do the exercise I'm telling them to. Sometimes, students get bogged down in "understanding" or "memorizing" or what something is called or some other detail, and they don't follow directions and do the exercise.

 

[Ceicei]

Ceicei, a question if you would.......

Was the student: A. slow
B. hard of hearing or deaf
c. Very intelligent but thinks differently than others
D. other

Anyway, in your original scenario you didn't say why the student was having trouble just the she was. So could you clear this up for me because obviously I'm not getting it.

Thanks

Wade,
In this story, the student is deaf. For the sake of the story, let's say there weren't very much written material about this martial art, so the research part regarding the terminology would be difficult to do.

One student asks, “Can you say that again? I cannot hear you.”

- Ceicei

 

[tellner]

I understand an instructor getting rid of a student that refuses to do the work.
Sean

Certainly. I can't do anything but spit on a teacher who refuses to take a moment for a diligent student who is having difficulties picking something up.

 

[wade]

Thank you Ceicei, that's what I thought but there were so many other types of responses that I wanted to make sure before I said anything. In 2002 I was in Dallas TX for a senior master certification course put on by the USTU. All the instructors were Koreans with (my opinion) very poor English speaking skills. The were teaching in large hotel rooms and speaking very softly (once again my opinion) with no sound systems. When I complained I was told to suck it up and stop wasting their time. It wasn't until I mentioned the American Disabilities act and threatened legal action that the finally did something to help me. So I can appreciate where you are coming from. I have complete deaf boy in my class right now. If I let him he tends to stand there with a blank look on his face, I don't. I can't sign but I can use hand gestures and things like that. I also have other more advanced students work with him one on one. This tends to get the message across to him of what I want and expect. If he wants to train and learn this system I am bound and determined he will.

 

[Cruentus]

Wade,
In this story, the student is deaf. For the sake of the story, let's say there weren't very much written material about this martial art, so the research part regarding the terminology would be difficult to do.


- Ceicei

See. Now to me, the fact that the student is deaf makes the situation far worse. Like I said before, I think everyone should have told the instructor to go **** himself, and left.

 

[tellner]

What Cruentus said

 

[Ceicei]

Well, this story is supposed to be hypothetical.

The point is not who (names of the people) or what (style), but how this (the situation) could be handled.

That said, I will put in some of my thoughts. Could the student have handled this better and demonstrated more patience and less sensitivity to the reactions of others? Could the instructor demonstrated more patience and a willingness to help? Sure, the responsibility for this would be on both the student and the instructor. Either way, this requires time from both of them.

The student could "help the instructor learn how to help". It is not easy for an instructor to know how best to help someone who may have a challenge, whatever it may be. The student usually knows what strategies works for him/her to learn. However, frustration can easily hinder the ability to be able to think of available options. While some written materials may not be available, the student could have put in more effort to sit down with the instructor and brainstorm ways of getting the information in a written or visual way.

The instructor could take the time to sit down and do more research about the particular challenges faced by his students. He could have viewed this as an opportunity to make his martial art more accessible. If there is not much written material available, this could be an interesting project that he can do, not just to help his one student, but to enhance the knowledge of his other students and himself. He could sit down with the student and brainstorm ideas of how to assist the student in understanding the terminology better.

I have more thoughts about this, but will need to come back to this and discuss further.

- Ceicei

 

[Kacey]

The student could "help the instructor learn how to help".

This depends in large part on the student. If the student is an adult, one would hope the student has the skills necessary to do just that - but the way you presented it sounded pretty demeaning to the student, and why should someone pay for instruction to be demeaned? Also, while that would be the moral high ground for a student, it should not be necessary - which doesn't mean it isn't necessary in a wide variety of circumstances - but were I that student, I would be much more willing to teach an instructor how to deal with my particular difficulties if I had the impression the instructor valued my presence.

If the student is a child, then the instructor's response is unconscionable. Children should not have to teach adults how to teach them.

The instructor could take the time to sit down and do more research about the particular challenges faced by his students.

And, IMHO, the instructor should have done just that. I get frustrated by my students at times, certainly - but I do my damnedest to not show that frustration to my students - and that includes a man who has been in my class 5 or 6 years, who has CP, a developmental delay (IQ roughly 65), and poor social skills. He drives me nuts on occasion - but I don't tell him that, and I do my best to not let him see it. His disability is not his fault, and he does the best he can - and I can't ask anything more than that. There was a lot of trial and error, and a lot of checking with other special ed professionals like the occupational therapist, when he started my class - especially since his parents wouldn't tell me anything beyond "he has special needs" - but he's still there... and he's the only person I know who had his contract not renewed at a well-known McDojo in the area, because of the difficulties inherent in teaching him, and the level of disruption he can cause.

 

[Ceicei]

but were I that student, I would be much more willing to teach an instructor how to deal with my particular difficulties if I had the impression the instructor valued my presence.

I will agree with that. In this particular situation, the student evidently doesn't need, nor have to, teach the instructor who isn't willing to listen and do more than the bare minimum.

but the way you presented it sounded pretty demeaning to the student, and why should someone pay for instruction to be demeaned?

Is your objection to the word "help" or do you think I am implying the request for help as an obligation? What is demeaning about "helping another learn how to help"? Would you have wanted this to be phrased in a different way? Help doesn't need to be an expression of weakness. Rather, I think that acknowledging the limitations and and seeking for ways to work with these limitations are an admission of strength. Some people are more capable of doing this than others and may have the ability to convey some ideas.

As you've said, age and capabilities make a big difference in whether a student can contribute to the solution.

If the student is a child, then the instructor's response is unconscionable. Children should not have to teach adults how to teach them.

I agree wholeheartedly with this part. Children should not have to teach adults how to teach, yet a wise teacher will indirectly find ways of learning from the children how to teach them what they need to progress.

- Ceicei

 

[Kacey]

I will agree with that. In this particular situation, the student evidently doesn't need, nor have to, teach the instructor who isn't willing to listen and do more than the bare minimum. Is your objection to the word "help" or do you think I am implying the request for help as an obligation? What is demeaning about "helping another learn how to help"? Would you have wanted this to be phrased in a different way? Help doesn't need to be an expression of weakness. Rather, I think that acknowledging the limitations and and seeking for ways to work with these limitations are an admission of strength. Some people are more capable of doing this than others and may have the ability to convey some ideas.

I was looking at the original post - particularly the bolded parts:

“This is what we’re going to do.” The instructor states the name of the move. The group repeats the name. Students pair off to practice the move several times over. The instructor then pauses, “What did we just do?” The group repeats the name of the move. “Very good, now we’re going to…” One student asks, “Can you say that again? I cannot hear you.” The instructor looks over and sighs. He repeats saying the name once more. The student tentatively follows and the instructor nods. “Ok, the next one is…”

He continues the same way with the next few moves. There is one move that has an especially difficult long name. The students say the name together. The one student struggles to say this. The instructor waves his hand, “Never mind,” and practices doing the move. At the end of that practice, the group states the name again. The one student is frustrated. “I need to have a way of knowing what it is. I have to see what this is and to make the association.” The instructor replies, “I don’t have time for this.”

The student points out, “You require us to know terminology before we can promote to the next level.”

“Yes, that is true,” says the instructor with a long steady gaze. “This takes too much time. You should not be here.” A long silence stretches to what feels like a minute. With a quiet voice, the student asks, “Are you saying you don’t want me here?” No response from the instructor. A door closes as the student leaves the school.

If I were told I should not be somewhere because I asked for help because I was paying attention and trying and still not getting it, and it annoyed the instructor to the point that s/he says “This takes too much time. You should not be here.” then I would find that demeaning - not because I asked for help, but because the instructor felt my need to be excessive simply because my learning style did not match the instructor's teaching style - so I find it demeaning for the student to be treated that way - not for the student to be asking for help. I'm sorry if I was not clear in what I was referring to; when I read/post at work, I only have 30 minutes, and post while eating, so sometimes I type too fast or leave things out.

If the student needed help because s/he was choosing to not pay attention, that's a whole other issue, for another thread.