Words of Wisdom from this Retired Marine Colonel

[Tgace]

Come back from Middle Earth....even there, did Aragorn rule a kingdom without laws or enforcement of them? Wasn't it death to even step into Lorien uninvited?

"It's why government officials kill over growing the wrong plants."

So. Is that intentional hyperbole or ignorance of what the legal use of force is? I would think that even you would realize that I wouldn't shoot someone for growing a plant. But if they are trying to kill me..... People have killed cops for traffic stops. Should we allow driving with no laws now too?

 

[Tgace]

Hmmm...interesting connection to a different thread.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php/111139-We-Were-Bored?p=1591574#post1591574

 

[Makalakumu]

Constitution doesn't apply to you remember you didn't agree to it.

Cute, but we were talking about a social contract that people had to accept.

 

[Makalakumu]

Come back from Middle Earth....even there, did Aragorn rule a kingdom without laws or enforcement of them? Wasn't it death to even step into Lorien uninvited?

"It's why government officials kill over growing the wrong plants."

So. Is that intentional hyperbole or ignorance of what the legal use of force is? I would think that even you would realize that I wouldn't shoot someone for growing a plant. But if they are trying to kill me..... People have killed cops for traffic stops. Should we allow driving with no laws now too?

Aragon represents the divine right of the Ruler. It is a contradiction of metaphors that Tolkien never solved. On one hand he saw the ultimate issue at the root of power, but on the other, he was a Monarchist. Some people really were just better and meant to rule. No one is perfect and I think it represents the strength of the superstitions that we carry.

Anyway, they are just metaphors.

The legal use of force is an interesting concept to explore, because here the contradiction will appear again. If normal guy trespasses onto another man's property, fully armed and kicking down a door with the intent of apprehending him and destroying his property, he has the legal right to defend himself. When a government official does it, if the man defends his property and freedom, this will escalate the use of force on the government's part. So, the principle of obedience is revealed again and we see that the actual reason all this occurs doesn't matter. As you say, people get killed over traffic stops.

I see a big problem with this because it means that government can grow and grow and grow into all kinds of areas and just suddenly peaceful, nonviolent activities become the subject for the application of the obedience principle.

 

[Makalakumu]

Hmmm...interesting connection to a different thread.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php/111139-We-Were-Bored?p=1591574#post1591574

Great thread. Thanks for linking. I think it has a profound connection here as well. Violence is never going to totally disappear from society. People can have brain injuries or simply be born with no empathy and these people are always capable of violence. Therefore, someone will have to respond to that violence. The key here is respond.

The key is also violence.

In this thread we are largely talking about the invitation of force against peaceful individuals by the state. This is very different from a person who has initiated force forcing the community to respond. The latter is moral, the former is not.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

First even if we go with the theory that the US is creating an internal army via military and police. (which I personally do not feel is happening) You also have LEO's on this site telling you it is not happening. Let's look at just this. Sure that would be a big organized force. However, everyone here does know just how many guns US citizens have? How could any police force or joint military force control this country? How could they when over time it has been shown how hard it is to control a small area in other countries when the populace does not want you there. Plus those people are typically armed less than most US citizens. The US citizens have more guns than most standing armies in the entire world. (probably more than all of them)

Second I know a lot of LEO's who are really, really close friends. I do not believe any of them would turn on the citizens of the United States of America. They have families. They have loved ones. Do you really think they would turn on the US citizens knowing that if they are doing it that their loved ones could suffer a similar fate by another LEO or military person in a different location? My money is that if anything did happen most LEO's would be protecting US citizens just like they do every day of the year. Why? Because that is the type of people they are! Imagine the local elected Sheriff telling his deputies to start rounding up people or shooting people. I think most deputies would say to hell with that or actually do more. This is not an uneducated group of people. This is not a group of people that are easily pushed around. The LEO's I know are smart and professional at what they do. Not people who have been brainwashed or easily manipulated by politicians.

Our law enforcement community is wearing fatigues because they are cheap, body armor because well bad guy's some times shoot back. They also wear riot gear when dealing with protestors because well frankly protestors can turn into a violent mob pretty quick! They have a shotgun because it is effective at close range, handgun because they can carry it easily everywhere and rifles because you just never know when some nut will go off and have a high powered rifle. Helicopters and drones because they are great for intelligence, etc. Armored vehicles because you could need it for a variety of reasons.

Our law enforcement community is actually a great group of people. Like Tgace said before it would be nice if people did a ride along just to have an idea on what LEO's actually do. Sure there is a bad apple here and there. Just like in any other profession. However, right now in this time frame we have the most educated and definitely the most professional law enforcement community that we have ever had. They are simply doing a job that is not easy and frankly most people do not want to do. I can get pretty upset when some crazy nut tries to tie in our law enforcement community with the idea that they are the standing army that is going to take away our rights. Particularly when you really think about it they are one of the groups that works hard to keep people off the street so that you can live in a society where you have the rights afforded a United States citizen!


I can guarantee you that the current LEO's I know and the ones currently out of the field will not let this country fall into some kind of dictatorship! Nor are they going to be the ones handing this country over to some group. That is laughable in my mind.

So rest at ease. Carry on with your life and enjoy all of the benefits that this great country has to offer! We are all so lucky to live here!!!

Sorry about the rant!

 

[Sukerkin]

It's not a rant when it is fine oratory, my friend :bows:.

This has been one of those rare threads where I started with one idea in my mind of how a certain thing was and have been persuaded differently by the participants.

 

[Makalakumu]

I can guarantee you that the current LEO's I know and the ones currently out of the field will not let this country fall into some kind of dictatorship! Nor are they going to be the ones handing this country over to some group. That is laughable in my mind.

I disagree. There is a lot of context here that needs to be taken into account and a lot of information that needs to considered before you make a prediction like this. Here are some general categories that I think you would be very surprised if you started to do a little research.

1. You need to take into account the history of governments in this world. The pattern is that they grow and collapse. They grow again and collapse. The reasons that they collapse vary, but one thing they all have in common is that moral compass of authority is always compromised. People in power may start out with good intentions, but those morph over time into evil. Various countries around the world exist on a continuum of degradation and will eventually proceed toward collapse.

2. You need to take the philosophy of the Founding Fathers into account and understand how incremental rationalization over time has undermined the protective power of the Constitution. The document began to fail shortly after it was drawn up and signed and I think this reflects the general inability to control power.

3. You need to be able to look at your country from an objective perspective and consider the actions that show how power is being applied. This will give you an accurate picture of your threat level from government. For example in the USA, our authorities have declared that citizens can be killed, captured and imprisoned without trial indefinitely. They have declared that torture is acceptable. They have declared that you have no privacy and that they have the right to literally watch everything you do. They are currently chipping away at your right to use force and carry weapons. They are actively initiating force against peaceful citizens engaged in all sorts of non-violent activities. They have more citizens locked in cages then any other country per capita. Most of these people are in cages for non-violent crimes. This country now engages in aggressive war overseas. I can go on and on and on.

If you look at this objectively, the warning bells of tyranny are sounding. The founding fathers of the US would be screaming for revolution, but the slow grind of incremental rationalization of those in power have slowly turned down the volume so that most people can't hear it.

So, what about the government officials who are charged with carrying out all of this? On the whole, their actions have shown that someone will always obey the orders of those in power, no matter how heinous. I highly suggest you check out the statistics given in the Milgram Experiment. 65% of people in the experiment delivered a fatal shock for not answering a question correctly, simply because they were told to do so. What this goes to show you is power and the obedience to power has surrounded you with sociopaths. Most people will hurt and kill you if you do not obey.

 

[Tgace]

When in American history was this "golden age" you say we have lost?

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[Makalakumu]

When in American history was this "golden age" you say we have lost?

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The Constitution was violated shortly after it was signed by the people who wrote it. Even they chafed under the restraints they placed on their own power and found ways to rationalize ways around those restraints. So, golden age? I don't think so. I think this supports the idea that power cannot be restrained. This means that we need to go back to the fundamental principles that organize society, IMO.

 

[Tgace]

The Constitution was violated shortly after it was signed by the people who wrote it. Even they chafed under the restraints they placed on their own power and found ways to rationalize ways around those restraints. So, golden age? I don't think so. I think this supports the idea that power cannot be restrained. This means that we need to go back to the fundamental principles that organize society, IMO.

What..

What society are you possibly thinking of? I believe Hammurabi had some pretty kicking laws.....

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[Brian R. VanCise]

I do not know about you guys but frankly I have never had it so good. Both economically and socially. I know some people are struggling but when I look at my whole extended family everyone is actually doing pretty well. This is over a broad range of people from doctor's to businessmen to home makers, retiree's, etc. Trust me things have not gone to hell. Sure the US has some problems but let me tell you right now having traveled around the world. I am really happy that I live here! I am sure that Sukerkin feels the same way about the UK and our friends from Canada feel the same way, etc. We all have a lot to be thankful for and understand that there are a lot of good quality people out there who feel just like us!

You really can count on people and particularly our law enforcement officers. Just look at any natural disaster and the stories of helping and heroism that come out of them. I saw two LEO's out helping ladies change tires on a recent trip. Trust me they enjoy living in the US as well just the way it is! Look at the fire fighters in Califronia, Arizona and Nevada risking their lives every day as well.

I know it is popular to go all doom and gloom right now but guess what? It has been popular throughout the course of human history. The world is still here and most of us are really good people!

Now I am not saying do not be prepared as pretty much everyone on this board prepares for violence in some way or another and we should all prepare in case of an emergency, natural disaster, violence, etc. Just be one of the sane people who prepares instead of someone who goes off the deep end! I am not saying anyone is going off the deep end but being realistic, rational is important in our society!

 

[Makalakumu]

What..

What society are you possibly thinking of? I believe Hammurabi had some pretty kicking laws.....

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What if the principles that Hammurabi used were the same principles that modern society uses now? Both societies require obedience to authority at their root.

This would make our societal technology grossly outdated.

 

[Tgace]

Go back to middle earth...apparently thousands if years of human history has taught you nothing about humans.

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[ballen0351]

What if the principles that Hammurabi used were the same principles that modern society uses now? Both societies require obedience to authority at their root.

This would make our societal technology grossly outdated.

So what's your alternative. If rule of law is outdated what would you like to see

 

[Makalakumu]

Go back to middle earth...apparently thousands if years of human history has taught you nothing about humans.

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The only thing that can really be said about human nature is that it is adaptable.

 

[Makalakumu]

So what's your alternative. If rule of law is outdated what would you like to see

I don't think humans are ready for an alternative yet, because they hardly understand the ramifications of the way society is being organized now. Take, for instance, the problem of evil. When the fundamental principle organizing society is obedience to authority, disobedience becomes the actionable evil act to which society responds. Even a commandment like thou shall not kill is merely just a command that requires obedience. This is of course how non violent acts become evil as well. Homosexuality is evil because it is breaking some commandment given by some authority. This principle also explains the moral relativistic nature of evil, because any authority can simply define evil with it's commands. This leads to the confusion we see today. So, simply obeying authority has some far reaching and harmful effects.

Noting these, what principle could replace the one we have now and perhaps grow a more functional human society. What could give everyone more freedom, more opportunity, and could lead to more peace and happiness in the world?

 

[Tgace]

http://www.lawofficer.com/article/news/plot-kill-vegas-officers-thwar

 

[Makalakumu]

http://www.lawofficer.com/article/news/plot-kill-vegas-officers-thwar

If people want to be aggressive and hurt people, they don't need to fight authority, they need to become part of it.

 

[Tgace]

http://www.lawofficer.com/article/news/sovereign-movement-critical-of

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