Withdrawal of the military?

[Xue Sheng]

Why are American lives so much more important than the lives of the Iraqi's we screwed over? I don't like the thought of more death and more peoples dieing for nothing, but I also don't like the prospect of a cut and run. I don't think we are on the right path, and don't think we have the right people in charge, but I will also be the first to admit I don't know what the right answer is. But I was taught if you make a mess clean the damn thing up and to me, this is no different

All lives there and anywhere are important, I just feel our presence there, if we are trying to make it a western style democracy, and at the moment we are, all we are going to do is get a whole lot of people killed for what is in the long run, and I am talking many many years, nothing.

It will go back to what it was prior to us ever being there, it pretty much has every single time a western power has gotten involved in the Middle East,

As for cleaning up a mess, it is kind of hard to do if the majority of the people there would prefer you didn't.

 

[Big Don]

When did the administration ever say it had to be a "western style" democracy? If "Western style" implies more than one person on the ballot, then, sure, "western style" it is.

 

[Big Don]

• We never should have been there in the first place.

• Yeah, we should have let Saddam and his darling boys continue to rape, murder and pillage at will

  [*]We are doing no good whatsoever.

  Gee, apparently building roads, schools, protecting the weak is "no good"

  [*]We are destroying the US military according to the Pentagon's own reports.

  Care to provide a link to any Pentagon report that explicitly states that? (I didn't think so)

  [*]We are bleeding our grandchildren white.

  To quote General Honore, "You're stuck on stupid"

  [*]We have sacrificed the rule of Law,

  Except, that Congress specifically voted to approve the use of force in Iraq. "I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force -- if necessary -- to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security." -- Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9, 2002

  separation of powers,

  Except, that Congress specifically voted to approve the use of force in Iraq

  the independence of the Judiciary

  How?

  and every other legal and democratic tradition for this mess.

  yeah, protecting the weak was never a legal or democratic tradition, nor was fighting those who would practice and condone evil

  [*]We have become an international pariah.

  Fine, we are still the baddest *** pariah ever. Gee, then I guess no foreign nation will be wanting the vast sums of foreign aid we send out...

  [*]We have turned war profiteering from a crime to stated government policy.

  To quote Ronald Reagan: "There you go again." You lie about what is stated policy. Where is war profiteering a stated policy?Please, enlighten me.

  [*]We have replaced soldiers, Marines, airmen and Intelligence officers with black-backed thugs who are accountable to no system of justice or legal authority except their paycheck.

  last I checked, there were a few boots on the ground over there...

  [*]We have done Al Qaeda's recruiting for the next hundred years.
  [*]We have done more to strengthen I-wanna-jihad's position in Iran than his supporters ever could.

  Yeah, and apparently, we strengthen the insanity of everyone like you, too.

  [*]We are paying a terrible price in homelessness, PTSD, lost limbs and wrecked brains.

  Deride the troops and then claim to care about vets, that's nice.Typical leftist Bovine Scat, but, nice.

  [*]We have turned into a nation which tortures and abuses civilians for no reason whatsoever.

  Yeah, uh huh, right.

  [*]We're hemorrhaging senior noncoms and career officers and replacing them with dregs who wouldn't have been allowed in the Army ten years ago.

  Yep, that's why RE-Enlistment rates are up...

  [*]We've far exceeded the UN fig leaf that Minimus crafted for us.

  "One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line." --President Bill Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998
• "Iraq is a long way from [here], but what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risks that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face." --Madeline Albright, Feb 18, 1998
• "He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times since 1983." --Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb, 18, 1998
• "[W]e urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs." Letter to President Clinton, signed by: -- Democratic Senators Carl Levin, Tom Daschle, John Kerry, and others, Oct. 9, 1998
• "Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process." -Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998
• "Hussein has ... chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction and palaces for his cronies." -- Madeline Albright, Clinton Secretary of State, Nov. 10, 1999
• "We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and a threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandate of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction and th! e means of delivering them." -- Sen. Carl Levin (D, MI), Sept. 19, 2002
• "In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members ... It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons." -- Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002
• I could go on, but, beating an idea into your head is like talking to a rock.

We should get out of their the day before yesterday.

President Clinton said the troops would be home, from Bosnia, before Christmas of 1996. President Bush said that the war on terror will be a long one and will extend past his presidency.

 

[Ping898]

All lives there and anywhere are important, I just feel our presence there, if we are trying to make it a western style democracy, and at the moment we are, all we are going to do is get a whole lot of people killed for what is in the long run, and I am talking many many years, nothing.

I agree completely, but I think there has to be another solution besides keep doing what we are doing and leaving and letting it all go to pot....

 

[Xue Sheng]

I agree completely, but I think there has to be another solution besides keep doing what we are doing and leaving and letting it all go to pot....

Agreed, but I am not exactly sure it would all go to pot, it may return to what is normalcy for that area of the world. Not exactly what we in the west like but what is normal for the Middle East. What I feel happens a lot when the west, particularly the USA, gets involved in any other country we believe they should be just like us whether they like it or not because we obviously know what is best for them.

Regardless of what happens it is certain it sure won't be pretty no matter which way we go.

 

[SageGhost83]

All lives there and anywhere are important, I just feel our presence there, if we are trying to make it a western style democracy, and at the moment we are, all we are going to do is get a whole lot of people killed for what is in the long run, and I am talking many many years, nothing.

It will go back to what it was prior to us ever being there, it pretty much has every single time a western power has gotten involved in the Middle East,

As for cleaning up a mess, it is kind of hard to do if the majority of the people there would prefer you didn't.

Amen! The people over there do not want a western style democracy and they are very quick to let us know that with all of the flag burning and demonizing of all things western over there. Even if we were to install a democracy, wouldn't the people just use their new democratic processes to vote a theocracy into its place? It would be their right as free citizens, after all. The place has been a mess for thousands of years and that is how they want it. Everytime somebody goes over there to try to clean it up, they just get beaten up and the residents trash the place all over again. Even if we were to "succeed" over there, we would just end up having to fight a radical islamic military down the line that is modernized and trained by the U.S. Military. I wouldn't be looking forward to that. Oh, and using nukes would've been the single most idiotic thing that we could've done. You think that the world hates us now? Oh man, you have no idea how it would be if we did that. Also, we are not invincible. There isn't a butt that can't be kicked. If we go rogue, somebody will take us down - the Romans and the Germans didn't think that they could be whooped either, and they were among the strongest and most technologically advanced nations in the world. We can't just go around forcing things on people and trying to get our way like a bully on the playground, somebody is eventually going to stand up to the bully and knock his block off...

Victory comes in many different forms - it is not always about dominating and controlling, sometimes the very act of getting out of an unfavorable position and living to fight another day is the great victory to be gained.

 

[Archangel M]

Say all the people who I wager never spent a minute in uniform.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Say all the people who I wager never spent a minute in uniform.

Not sure what that means or who it is directed to.

But to clarify I never did wear a military uniform, I grew up in the military though, my father was career military. But that does not make anything I said more or less valid than anyone else; I based what I said on what I know of Middle East history.

And I am not against the military, I am however very concerned about them putting their lives on the line for what eventually will revert to what it was before they got there and if God forbid there is a next time because it won't be Saddam it will be a different name and this time he will have US trained troops.

With that said when 9/11 happened and we went to Afghanistan I fully agreed I am not protesting Iraq either but this idea that we need to clean up this mess is to me not realistic, we can't. It was a mess by Western standards before we got there and it will be after we leave. It is a Muslim nation that has been that way for centuries and a few short years of US influence will not change a thing.

Now how long were you in uniform?

 

[Touch Of Death]

We should have drop a nuke on bagdad from the start, all the whinning by the UN would be over by now, the Russians and Chinese would not be screwing with us, they rest of the terrorist would be shaking in their boots forever. Look at Japan, its a good friend to us now.

We should just kill all the Muslim badguys along with millions of innnocent people?
Sean

 

[SageGhost83]

Say all the people who I wager never spent a minute in uniform.

I am currently in uniform as I type this. I have many relatives who are serving in both Iraq and Afghanistan. They are actually over there *right now* getting shot at and keeping an eye out for I.E.D's and suicide bombers. Believe me - my opinions come from the very personal reports I recieve from people who are actually over there on the ground and know the day-to-day reality of the situation. Furthermore, I will most likely end up over there in the not so distant future. So I'll opine even further when I get the chance :wink2:.

 

[SageGhost83]

This is not an easy issue to discuss, either. I earned a bachelor's degree and have many connections in high places, but I chose to go into the military because I wanted to try to make a difference, even if it is only a small one. My mind is telling me that Iraq is a no-win situation, but my heart is telling me that we have to at least try to make a difference over there in spite of everything that has happened concerning the past and the lies of our leaders. I think that we owe the Iraqi people that much - both for our role in putting Saddam in power, and for invading in the first place. I never give up and I don't know how to give up. That is just me. I keep plugging away even if I am in a no-win situation, if I am going to go out, then it is going to be on my feet giving my enemy everything that he/she can handle and whole lot more. Should we really pull out? As bad as things are on the ground over there, we are making progress according to my cousin. The streets are not as dangerous at night as they were 6 months ago, and he says that he doesn't get shot at as much while out on routine patrol. According to the news, attacks have sharply dropped, too. I normally don't trust the news on this matter, but since I have my cousin's first hand account from being on the ground over there, then this is one time I will give the media credit for getting it right. The Iraqis are fighting the insurgents even more than we are and they seem to be doing a pretty damn good job of it. The Iraqi military is growing stronger and it is able to exert pressure on the insurgents, however, many of those very same insurgents are signing up, too. I think that our role is going to be reduced over there, and it should be. However, as big don said, we will always have some type of military presence over there. Just as long as it isn't too big of presence.

 

[ejaazi]

The little progress being made is too costly to the American public. Besides, how can you really fix someone else's house, when your own house is in an uproar? There are too many problem here that need to be fixed. We need to mind our business and take care of our own people.

 

[Big Don]

We need to mind our business and take care of our own people.

Wilson tried that, it didn't work...

 

[Xue Sheng]

Wilson tried that, it didn't work...

Are you talking about Woodrow Wilson the Twenty-Eighth President 1913-1921 that had congress declare war on Germany which got the US into World War 1?

I'm sorry but I fail to see the comparison or fully understand the reference, could you please explain?

 

[Bigshadow]

Are you talking about Woodrow Wilson the Twenty-Eighth President 1913-1921 that had congress declare war on Germany which got the US into World War 1?

I'm sorry but I fail to see the comparison or fully understand the reference, could you please explain?

I believe Wilson was staunchly opposed to entering the war, but was encouraged to later. In fact the United States even remained neutral well beyond the sinking of the Lusitania. The United States was being pressured economically due to the blockades by both Britain and Germany, yet Wilson still tried to remain neutral.

However... FWIW....

Wilson did try to maintain the United States' neutrality by sending messages to both sides. He tried to bring the war to an end and attempted to get peace negotiations started. However, at about this time in the war, the Zimmermann telegram was intercepted and decoded. On February 25, 1917, Arthur Zimmermann (Germany's foreign minister) proposed an alliance between Germany and Mexico in the event that Germany would declare war against the United States. In return for support, Germany would help Mexico to recover New Mexico, Texas, and Arizona. This was a direct threat against the United States. Between this time and April 2, 1917, the date that the United States officially declared war, German submarines sank five more American ships. These were direct threats against the United States and this alone justifies their involvement. If they were not to have gotten involved at this point in time, there may have been a separate war to develop between Germany and the United States.

Source:http://www.socyberty.com/History/United-States-Involvement-in-WWI.57905

 

[Xue Sheng]

I believe Wilson was staunchly opposed to entering the war, but was encouraged to later. In fact the United States even remained neutral well beyond the sinking of the Lusitania. The United States was being pressured economically due to the blockades by both Britain and Germany, yet Wilson still tried to remain neutral.

However... FWIW....


Source:http://www.socyberty.com/History/United-States-Involvement-in-WWI.57905

Thanks, now I understand the reference

 

[donald]

I think it is time to get out. We are in danger of becoming entrenched in a never ending quagmire of battles, and skirmishes. I pray that GOD blesses those in authority the wisdom they need to get us out as quickly as possible with honor.

1stJohn1:9