Wing vs. Weng

[LFJ]

Even though KPM and I are apparently speakers of the same dialect, i.e. Standard American English

Don't know about you, but KPM definitely has a non-SAE accent in the couple videos I've seen of him.

Not quite sure where to place it though, because it's slight, and may just be his squealy voice.

But at times, it's like it has a bit of a Southern twang or something. For example, he pronounces him like 'eem, which is definitely a Southern thing.

It's not terribly thick, but there's enough of an accent there. I guess that's why he pronounces cling and clean differently.

Do you pronounce cling with a long E or a short I? That is, like clean + g or clinch - ch + g?

 

[ivanr]

hello,
with all the respect to anyone. Here from the streets of Hong Kong. By speaking out is not 100% same for sure, but clouse to same.
greetings, ir

 

[KPM]

Don't know about you, but KPM definitely has a non-SAE accent in the couple videos I've seen of him. Not quite sure where to place it though, because it's slight, and may just be his squealy voice.


Texas accent filtered through 12 years of living in Maryland.

 

[KPM]

Thanks Ivan! Yes, the different spellings in English is definitely a western thing that we have come up with to distinguish between the two systems since we seldom use the Chinese characters. And glad to see that you also hear a difference in the pronunciations!

Here is another example for those that may still be confused, or maybe it will just create more confusion!

Say the English word "wing." Now say the English word "when." Notice a difference? Now say the made up word "wheng." That should sound different to you than "wing." This is the difference I hear between "Wing Chun" and "Weng Chun."

 

[LFJ]

Texas accent filtered through 12 years of living in Maryland.

Earlier I guessed Southern East Coast, but I guess it's Southern and East Coast then, ha!

Say the English word "wing." Now say the English word "when." Notice a difference? Now say the made up word "wheng." That should sound different to you than "wing."

Those are just what I call the long < e > and short < i > sounds.

 

[Tez3]

Say the English word "wing." Now say the English word "when." Notice a difference? Now say the made up word "wheng." That should sound different to you than "wing." This is the difference I hear between "Wing Chun" and "Weng Chun."

Sadly that won't work in the UK, some dialects will pronounce 'when' with the wh very guttural ( like Dutch or German), others will pronounce the 'g' very hard so a word like singer comes out as 'sinGa so wing sounds like winGa.

In karate we use the word 'Hajime', most often it's pronounced 'jimmy' or 'hammy' which are about as far as you can get from the correct pronunciation as you can get, simply because different people with different dialects say it the way they talk. My husband never says water as I do he calls it 'watter' rhyming with matter, it's Yorkshire dialect, it's not just pronunciation it's a whole different language, with many words coming from Norse and are still understandable by Norwegians.

I have a Gurkha friend who says it's exactly the same in Nepal, different areas have different dialects, he spent a long time with the army in Hong Kong so has a good grasp of Cantonese too. He does TKD, his Korean isn't the same as the words I know! Words get mangled, look at the way Americans pronounce English words for example!! Just look at the word 'buoy' we say 'boy' you say 'booooeeee', well I ask you is it any wonder words in other languages get confused when that's what happens to English words in American! As for aluminium......

 

[ivanr]

Thanks Ivan! Yes, the different spellings in English is definitely a western thing that we have come up with to distinguish between the two systems since we seldom use the Chinese characters. And glad to see that you also hear a difference in the pronunciations!

Here is another example for those that may still be confused, or maybe it will just create more confusion!

Say the English word "wing." Now say the English word "when." Notice a difference? Now say the made up word "wheng." That should sound different to you than "wing." This is the difference I hear between "Wing Chun" and "Weng Chun."

No reason to distinguish between two wing chun systems. Names of Grandmasters is not enough?
Greetings, ir

 

[Tez3]

No reason to distinguish between two wing chun systems. Names of Grandmasters is not enough?
Greetings, ir

I think you have just won the whole argument!!

 

[KPM]

No reason to distinguish between two wing chun systems. Names of Grandmasters is not enough?
Greetings, ir

There are very good reasons to distinguish between the two! Too often Weng Chun gets lumped with Wing Chun and people assume they are the same thing. They are not. I think distinguishing between them with a simple spelling change is a good idea. Why is that any different than using the two different characters when naming the systems in Chinese? With your logic here we should just use the same "wing" character in Chinese for both!

 

[geezer]

Do you pronounce cling with a long E or a short I? That is, like clean + g or clinch - ch + g?

...er, I say the "ing" in cling with a short I as in pin, thin, bin, etc. Most Anglo folks in Phoenix speak relatively neutral Standard American English. In fact it used to be one of the prime recruitment grounds for call centers for just this reason. Of course now that business has mostly gone overseas. I guess it's even cheaper to coach South Asians to speak with an American accent than to pay even the lousy wages we earn in Arizona.

Interestingly, a while back listening to NPR, I heard that call centers in India have taken to coaching their employees to speak with a sort of generic Southern (American) accent since it's easy to learn and tends to mask the South Asian accent to most American ears.

 

[geezer]

I don't really care about the spellings people choose, but it seems that they really are two different systems that apparently shared and borrowed some things way back.
This in not just a matter of a divergent lineage during the last century, but a case of the two systems being distinct since they emerged or at least as far back as we can trace them reliably, say to around the mid 19th Century or so? So it would be useful to denote this somehow in the Romanization of their names, just as it is apparent in the differences between the characters for "Wing" and Weng".

On the other hand, insiders will already know which is which when you state your lineage, and those outside the martial arts, such as my dad, will still refer to what we do as "that karate stuff"!

 

[Argus]

You should hear the Japanese commands as spoken by people with British regional accents, we've had Japanese nationals totally bemused before now.

I have to say, if I were to pick two combinations resulting in "the most humorous mispronunciation of a foreign word in one language by a native speaker of the another," it would be British English -> Japanese, hands down. I generally try not to laugh or judge, because it's not to be expected that one would know how to pronounce a word in another language, and any attempt is commendable, but I can't help but chuckle when I hear a British accent applied to Japanese words, if I can make out the word to begin with.

Now, the strange/difficult thing is to hear someone speaking who is in the process of learning the language, and far enough along to have a decent vocabulary and speak coherently, but who still retains a very strong accent. We've all experienced this in our native language, but experiencing it in your second or third language is interesting; I've heard people speaking Japanese with a very strong American, British, Chinese, German, and Spanish accents, among others. The strange thing is that, when it's strong, it can be very hard to understand, even if you're familiar with that accent (ie, American, or British), if you mostly only listen to native speakers. It also brings up some interesting questions about accents, and why some people retain them and others don't. Some people quickly adopt a very natural, fairly native accent by the time they reach a basic level of fluency, whereas others retain a thick accent even after living in a country for many years, and gaining a similar level of proficiency. I guess some people are more just more or less fluid in reforming certain habits?

That ability to recognize, and readily reform habits is, in my opinion, a very important skill in language learning as well as martial arts.

 

[Tez3]

I have to say, if I were to pick two combinations resulting in "the most humorous mispronunciation of a foreign word in one language by a native speaker of the another," it would be British English -> Japanese, hands down. I generally try not to laugh or judge, because it's not to be expected that one would know how to pronounce a word in another language, and any attempt is commendable, but I can't help but chuckle when I hear a British accent applied to Japanese words, if I can make out the word to begin with.

You do also have to take into account the British antipathy to foreign languages, if not downright hatred lol. Pronouncing foreign words in a way that makes them English is an art form many practice here. Just listening to a British chap say 'Avez vous' is hugely amusing especially when you see the said chap has the idea that he, being British, is naturally saying it properly and the French are not. Foreigners really aren't playing cricket when they insist on speaking strange languages.

 

[geezer]

You do also have to take into account the British antipathy to foreign languages, if not downright hatred lol. Pronouncing foreign words in a way that makes them English is an art form many practice here. Just listening to a British chap say 'Avez vous' is hugely amusing especially when you see the said chap has the idea that he, being British, is naturally saying it properly and the French are not. Foreigners really aren't playing cricket when they insist on speaking strange languages.

Hmmm. Most Yanks are the same way. Probably inherited the trait from the mother-country. i.e. you guys. You should hear the average anglo-Texan speak Spanish. Some are fairly fluent but they still sound just like cowboys or country singers!

I, on the other hand, worked really hard on my Mexican Spanish accent. And my Mexican friends tell me I do a pretty decent job. Unfortunately I get into a lot of trouble since I'm not fluent enough to back it up. People will hear my accent then start talking to me at a mile a minute assuming (mistakenly) that I will understand!

 

[KPM]

You know, I've been around a LOT of Spanish speakers in my life. Very few of them spoke English without an Hispanic accent. So I always wondered why they felt the need to correct my Spanish pronunciation for the few things I am able to say!

 

[Tez3]

I, on the other hand, worked really hard on my Mexican Spanish accent. And my Mexican friends tell me I do a pretty decent job. Unfortunately I get into a lot of trouble since I'm not fluent enough to back it up. People will hear my accent then start talking to me at a mile a minute assuming (mistakenly) that I will understand!

I was watching the pro cycling Tour of the Basque country last week, and I learnt that Spanish is an emotive subject in Spain and what we know as Spanish is actually Castilian. It sounded a very complicated subject tied up with various people's independence movements, not just the Basques which is similar to the situation we have in the UK with Welsh, Manx, Cornish, the Gaelic and the Irish Gaelic languages.

 

[ivanr]

There are very good reasons to distinguish between the two! Too often Weng Chun gets lumped with Wing Chun and people assume they are the same thing. They are not. I think distinguishing between them with a simple spelling change is a good idea. Why is that any different than using the two different characters when naming the systems in Chinese? With your logic here we should just use the same "wing" character in Chinese for both!

Hi again,
aha...
Anyone want piece of cake, right? Good, no problem for me. You are living different dream then me (and my fatsanese friends here)...
Greetings from China,
ir

 

[ivanr]

PS- actualy i wanted to share my whole point of view, but i am tiping all messages on my mob phone, so i am sorry, that is not easy... Will try it later from some computer. Just little note, some here really use same character for both. Tang Suens grandstudents. Right now siting on the same table with me. And for them is our debate realy funy. But we like, right?

 

[LFJ]

...er, I say the "ing" in cling with a short I as in pin, thin, bin, etc. Most Anglo folks in Phoenix speak relatively neutral Standard American English.

Really? And you say cling like that? I don't think that's neutral SAE. Sounds very strange to me. All words ending in -ing are pronounced with a long < e > as in sing where I'm from; Midwest, non-regional accent. General American usually refers to relatively unmarked speech from the Midwest.

 

[KPM]

PS- actualy i wanted to share my whole point of view, but i am tiping all messages on my mob phone, so i am sorry, that is not easy... Will try it later from some computer. Just little note, some here really use same character for both. Tang Suens grandstudents. Right now siting on the same table with me. And for them is our debate realy funy. But we like, right?

Looking forward to your reply Ivan! Which Tang Suen grandstudents are you with? I know at least one Tang Suen grandstudent....my Sifu Michael Tang....who also uses the "Weng Chun" spelling in English and is the one that pointed out to me the pronunciation differences. He also thinks that the 永 character was likely the original name for both systems and it was changed later.