Wing Chun vs. Jun Fan Kung-Fu

[yin_yang75]

A lot of what you guys have discussed is here http://www.blackbeltmag.com/archives/blackbelt/1982/dec82/cheung/cheung.html

Pack a lunch it is no quick read but it is good. I liked the part where Yip Man told them to go out and fight to test their techniques. Also Bruce Lee had trouble getting a passport because he was considered a street gang member according to this. It is one of the best articles I've read.

The original question was the difference between Jun Fan and Wing Chun and this article tells a lot.

I think the bottom line is Bruce Lee is the first person that cross trained. Who remembers Bo Jackson? Where did he get off getting credit for cross training, there should have been Bruce Lee Cross Trainers by Nike.

The story of wing chun is that it was developed to give the masses a quick effective way to fight so they could have a revolution. Over time the art was refined, polished and developed into a higher caliber martial art. This was done by useing techniques from other arts and an incredible amount of diligence. These masters that refined Wing Chun or any other art for that matter, were cut from the same mold as Lee. The wanted more, they wanted better, they didn't stop growing and learning as long as they were breathing.

Maybe it's a good thing Nike didn't come out with a pair of Bruce Lee Cross Trainers, they would be hard shoes to fill.:asian:

 

[yin_yang75]

Sorry I was on a rant and forgot the rest of the story:
http://www.blackbeltmag.com/archives/blackbelt/1983/jan83/yipman/yipman.html
I'm sorry this is a 4 part article and I can't find the last 2.:disgust:

 

[bart]

Hey,

I'm a WC practitioner from the Cheung lineage. I also trained at the Inosanto Academy for a little bit. There was a lot of difference. WC borders on being internal in the same fashion as Hsing I. Wing Chun techniques must all adhere to the principles and theories that are the foundation of the system.

In Jun Fan Wing Chun, which is not JKD, but like Cthulu said its predecessor, we didn't learn any forms. It was as if someone had learned some WC but just threw out the theories. The teachers suggested head level kicks to respond to punches. You could see the influence of the Sil Lim Tao and part of the Chum Kil, but the rest was very external and almost every suggested defense involved WAY more expending of energy than was necessary. I didn't realize how important the progression is in WC until I went there. The lack of the Bil Gee set makes Jun Fan Wing Chun very different. Kickboxing moves and round punches were literally and very obviously grafted into the system. It was eventually one of the reasons I left the IA. Don't get me wrong, they teach good stuff in that class, but if you know WC, then it would feel like a step in the wrong direction everytime you went to class. It was very flashy and WC is not flashy at all.

I've read the Cheung/Wong book and it's a decent read but very simplified so as to reach a wider audience. It's just a generalized read.

And the Tan Sao failing was something that used to happen with practitioners of another WC group who I was friendly with in college when we would get together to compare notes and do some light sparring. They did attempt that very defense, but usually in response to a secondary attack, never the first attack.

 

[brothershaw]

I see jkd people in articles and such talk of bruce lee and him creating jkd as an improvement , advancement etc. Regardless of how good he may have been just because wing chun as he experienced it wasnt for him doesn't make it any less valid. for anybody else. I have met people who were quick to expose bruce lees philisophy, or believe that training in a " traditional " style was too rigid, yet have no frame of reference except magazine interviews, and movie clips.
I have not "tried" jkd, but I think some people may believe it to be a shortcut, which isnt there. There is no escaping having to practice punchs, kicks and footwork thousands of times for years to become a good martial artist.
So to me the real question is does jkd make you a better fighter or martial artist than wing chun? or make you a better fighter/ martial artist in a shorter period of time?
How long does it take to complete the system of jkd( if thats possible)? Is there a required body of knowlege comparable to the sil lum tao, chum kui, bil jee, and weapons sets of wing chun that define the art?
Some people believe jkd is the best thing since slice bread and maybe it is but why? Because bruce lee created it? Or are the principles more sound?

 

[Cthulhu]

I've always said that to truly experience the benefits JKD training can offer, you first need to have some years of experience in a 'traditional' or 'classical' system. Even though he was kicked out before learning the whole system, Lee did spend about five years training with Yip Man. Nearly all of his early students came from a traditional MA background, like karate, judo, or kenpo.

Unfortunately, many people seem to take up JKD without any traditional MA background, and thus cannot get a decent appreciation of escaping the 'classical mess'. How can someone escape something they've never been bound by?

For the record, I happen to enjoy traditional MA very much

Cthulhu

 

[desertwingchun]

I was reading all these threads and didn't see one reference to Wong Shun Lung. Didn't he and Bruce have a close relationship? If they did (I thought they did) wouldn't that account for Bruce's interest in western boxing? More so that he was tired of philosophy? Anyways just my $.02.
-David

 

[Flying Crane]

...holy crap...

 

[KPM]

Koo Koo! Koo Koo! Koo Koo!

 

[anerlich]

I used to own that book. It's either in a box somewhere or I lent it to someone who never returned it.

Could you clarify the Wing Chun bit? Here are the two versions of Yip Man Wing Chun according to William Cheung:

1) Modified Wing Chun - The Wing Chun taught to all of Yip Man's students

2) Classical Wing Chun - The Wing Chun supposedly taught only to William Cheung

So with these descriptions, could you say which is in that book?

Cthulhu

The Wing Chun demonstrated in the book is what William Cheung calls "Traditional Wing Chun", rather than Classical Wing Chun, but, yes, your option 2.

While we are nerding out on history, I trained with a guy, David Crook, who learned Wing Chun from William Cheung in the 1960s, and currently (27 years) with Rick Spain who learned from him starting in 1974 until 1995. What David learned has significant differences with footwork, bon sao and other things, to what Rick taught.

This gives credence to William Cheung's claim that what he taught prior to Yip Man's death in 1973 (the "modified" system) was different to what he started teaching after his claimed vow to Yip Man not to teach the "traditional" system, from which he felt released after YM's death.

According to him, Yip Man learned the "modified" system from Chan Wa Shun and the "traditional" system from Leung Bik. Leng Bik's father, Leung Jan, mode up the modified system and taught it to Chan Wa Shun, and reserved the "traditional" system for his sons, including Leung Bik.

I've seen recent conjecture that Yip Man actually learned stuff from Yuen Kay San and concocted the Leung Bik story so that someone wouldn't lose face, but all these stories are unverifiable and all severely test the bounds of credibility.

There is also conjecture that William Cheung spent some time on the mainland and learned some Wing Chun from teachers there while in exile due to dodgy activities or triad problems. He ain't changed his story in 50+ years.

 

[anerlich]

Direwolf I would encourage you to go, since you are in Aust, to GM Cheungs school and trade hands with Dana Wong and see if his Tan Sao fails. IMHO taking 'typing shots' and a Wing Chun Grandmaster that studied directly with Yip Man shows very poor character.

I've been a TWC practitioner for 27 years ... I can still find some of the Grandmaster's statements and claims about "Traditional" and "modified" embarrassing and unnecessary.

 

[geezer]

I've been a TWC practitioner for 27 years ... I can still find some of the Grandmaster's statements and claims about "Traditional" and "modified" embarrassing and unnecessary.

Anerlich: Sounds like you feel like some of the rest of us ... basically that your Grandmaster was actually quite good but went embarrassingly beyond the pale in his attempt to present himself as the greatest authority and sole "inheritor" of the authentic WC.

Or maybe not? But that's how I view my time with Leung Ting. He really was quite good in his own way. You'd think that would have been enough without all his embarrassing antics and hyperbolic claims. Similar perspective from the other side of a (thankfully) long dead conflict.

BTW what is the deal lately with all these resurrected threads from decades past. I haven't seen a post by Cthulhu since shortly after I joined this forum nearly ten years ago. Wonder what happened to him. Xue is one of the last of that "generation". Maybe he knows....

 

[anerlich]

Anerlich: Sounds like you feel like some of the rest of us ... basically that your Grandmaster was actually quite good but went embarrassingly beyond the pale in his attempt to present himself as the greatest authority and sole "inheritor" of the authentic WC.

Or maybe not? But that's how I view my time with Leung Ting. He really was quite good in his own way. You'd think that would have been enough without all his embarrassing antics and hyperbolic claims. Similar perspective from the other side of a (thankfully) long dead conflict.

I agree. William Cheung is very good at Wing Chun, less so at management and public relations. He's a man with flaws, not a saint, same as everybody else.

 

[wingchun100]

What are the differences between Wing Chun Kung Fu and Jun Fan Kung-Fu? Is the latter just Bruce Lee's interpretation of the former? I ask as a beginning JKD student who is trying to sort these things out!

Wing chun is a complete system. JFKF is what Bruce Lee knew of it. I studied at a wing chun school that was in the Ip Ching lineage. Now I study with a Sifu who learned from Augustine Fong and Jack Ling. The stories I have been told confirm that Bruce learned all of Sil Lum Tao and started Chum Kiu when he left China. He had a firm grasp on some of the principles, but he did not know the complete system. No one will ever know how he would have felt about it if he HAD learned more, but hey...that is the way history went down, for better or worse.

 

[geezer]

No one will ever know how he would have felt about it if he HAD learned more, but hey...that is the way history went down, for better or worse.

With respect for Bruce, I don't think knowing more of the WC system (Yip Man lineage or any other) would have kept Bruce from doing his own thing. He was a very independent thinker, not the kind of guy to stay in a single system for decades. On the other hand, had he gone on to live a full life, I suspect that what he ended up doing in middle age and beyond would have looked increasingly like WC again. Just my guess...