What are the differences between Wing Chun Kung Fu and Jun Fan Kung-Fu? Is the latter just Bruce Lee's interpretation of the former? I ask as a beginning JKD student who is trying to sort these things out!
Wing Chun vs. Jun Fan Kung-Fu
- Thread starter arnisador
- Start date
The correct definition of Jun Fan Kung Fu is Bruce Lee's personal expression of Jeet Kune Do, JKD being the principle and JFKF being the techniques he used. Since his primary martial art was Wing Chun, than JFKF shows a large WC influence.
Where I study we concentrate on more on Muay Thai at the beginner level, but after a year I'm starting to learn some of the JFKF stuff, so I'm not sure that I'm qualified to explain the differences/similarities. I know that many of WC's techniques are used, but we also strive to incorporate relevant concepts from other arts. My understanding of WC is that it is very important to maintain the centerline, lots of trapping, straight blast (jik cheung choi), etc. In JFKF, we can do this, or we can flow into other areas of training, such as zoning to the outside, BJJ style grappling, Muay Thai elbows and knees, etc. I'm sure if IFAJKD peeks in here he can set us both straight.
Hope that helps. (Actually, I just hope that was coherent.)
Where I study we concentrate on more on Muay Thai at the beginner level, but after a year I'm starting to learn some of the JFKF stuff, so I'm not sure that I'm qualified to explain the differences/similarities. I know that many of WC's techniques are used, but we also strive to incorporate relevant concepts from other arts. My understanding of WC is that it is very important to maintain the centerline, lots of trapping, straight blast (jik cheung choi), etc. In JFKF, we can do this, or we can flow into other areas of training, such as zoning to the outside, BJJ style grappling, Muay Thai elbows and knees, etc. I'm sure if IFAJKD peeks in here he can set us both straight.
Hope that helps. (Actually, I just hope that was coherent.)
I tend not to agree with this definition of Jun Fan Gung Fu since it was around before the term Jeet Kune Do was introduced. It is more correct to say that JKD evolved from Lee's Jun Fan Gung Fu.
Even so, it could be said that Jun Fan Gung Fu wasn't a concrete system, as it is basically just the 'gung fu practiced at the Jun Fan (Lee's Cantonese name) Institute', and that seemed to be in a continual state of evolution.
At its most basic, Jun Fan Gung Fu is simply Lee's heavily modified version of Wing Chun. That being said, it is important to note that Lee did not learn the complete Wing Chun system before he left Hong Kong. I believe he had learned the first two forms (Sil lum tao and chum kil) and part of the wooden dummy set. On one of his trips back to Hong Kong, Lee tried to get permission to film Yip Man doing the dummy set, but he was refused.
He utilized the trapping, punching, sensitivity, and centerline concepts of Wing Chun (among other things), and merged them with Northern kung fu, Savate, and Muay Thai kicks and a modified Wing Chun stance that allowed for greater mobility, much like a boxer's stance, which is but one of the things he pulled from Western boxing. Please bear in mind that this is very simplified.
It is Lee's analysis of the effectiveness, and ineffectiveness, of Jun Fan Gung Fu that led to what was first introduced as JKD. The rest, as they say, is history.
I think it'll be a bit before IFAJKD can respond, since I believe he's taking a little vacation right now. Wish him a safe trip, all.
Cthulhu
Good post, Cthulu. Very informative. Arigatoo Gozaimasu.
No problem, guys.
Here's a little more regarding Lee's incompletion of the Wing Chun system.
According to various biographies and an interview with William Cheung, Lee's fanaticism for martial arts developed early on, and he was always practicing what he had learned, doing his best to become his best. Part of this involved challenging other students in the school (I believe the challenge was doing chi sao, maybe not actual fights, though he did have fights with students of other systems). According to these sources, Lee eventually got to the point where he was besting some of his seniors. This angered them because: 1) Lee was challenging them, and it was considered against protocol to challenge a senior, and 2) he was beating them, which just made them look bad.
At this time, Yip Man had a policy of only teaching Chinese. Word got out that Lee had German blood (from his mother's side), so the senior students brought this point up to Yip Man. Yip Man didn't want to kick Lee out, maybe because of Lee's progress, but also just as likely because Lee had already achieved some fame as a child actor in Hong Kong. Yip Man reportedly also had a gambling problem; because of this, a group of his senior students managed the finances of the schools, taking care of the bills and whatnot and giving Yip Man an 'allowance' from this. They threatened to lessen his 'allowance' if Lee was allowed to stay (note: as time goes by, I find the gambling/allowance thing harder and harder to believe. Nowadays, I tend to believe that Yip Man was forced to kick Lee out to comply with his 'no non-Chinese' rule). Anyway, Lee got kicked out. He still got training for some time from William Cheung and a couple of other senior students, supposedly under Yip Man's authorization.
Lee always praised Yip Man and his Wing Chun, even after he had modified it for his own purposes. Lee also visited Yip Man and some of the Wing Chun students when he returned to Hong Kong.
As for Yip Man not allowing himself to be filmed doing the dummy set, here is the reason, according to an interview with Hawkins Cheung:
According to Cheung, once a student left Yip Man's school and began teaching on their own, he no longer considered that person a student but a competitor, and as such, he would no longer share the system with them. This is supposedly why Yip Man refused to be filmed doing the dummy set for Lee.
Please bear in mind that I'm writing this all from a very whacked-out memory, so I may have mixed up some facts and/or names.
Cthulhu
Here's a little more regarding Lee's incompletion of the Wing Chun system.
According to various biographies and an interview with William Cheung, Lee's fanaticism for martial arts developed early on, and he was always practicing what he had learned, doing his best to become his best. Part of this involved challenging other students in the school (I believe the challenge was doing chi sao, maybe not actual fights, though he did have fights with students of other systems). According to these sources, Lee eventually got to the point where he was besting some of his seniors. This angered them because: 1) Lee was challenging them, and it was considered against protocol to challenge a senior, and 2) he was beating them, which just made them look bad.
At this time, Yip Man had a policy of only teaching Chinese. Word got out that Lee had German blood (from his mother's side), so the senior students brought this point up to Yip Man. Yip Man didn't want to kick Lee out, maybe because of Lee's progress, but also just as likely because Lee had already achieved some fame as a child actor in Hong Kong. Yip Man reportedly also had a gambling problem; because of this, a group of his senior students managed the finances of the schools, taking care of the bills and whatnot and giving Yip Man an 'allowance' from this. They threatened to lessen his 'allowance' if Lee was allowed to stay (note: as time goes by, I find the gambling/allowance thing harder and harder to believe. Nowadays, I tend to believe that Yip Man was forced to kick Lee out to comply with his 'no non-Chinese' rule). Anyway, Lee got kicked out. He still got training for some time from William Cheung and a couple of other senior students, supposedly under Yip Man's authorization.
Lee always praised Yip Man and his Wing Chun, even after he had modified it for his own purposes. Lee also visited Yip Man and some of the Wing Chun students when he returned to Hong Kong.
As for Yip Man not allowing himself to be filmed doing the dummy set, here is the reason, according to an interview with Hawkins Cheung:
According to Cheung, once a student left Yip Man's school and began teaching on their own, he no longer considered that person a student but a competitor, and as such, he would no longer share the system with them. This is supposedly why Yip Man refused to be filmed doing the dummy set for Lee.
Please bear in mind that I'm writing this all from a very whacked-out memory, so I may have mixed up some facts and/or names.
Cthulhu
Oh, and here is my comparison of WC and JF, from my limited knowledge of both systems...
Similarities:
- centerline theory
- immovable elbow principle
- economy of motion
- chi sao/gerk
- gate system for defining areas of defense
Differences:
- JF has a greater arsenal of kicks
- JF use of strong side forward
- larger array of hand techniques for JF
- JF has more mobile footwork...not as 'rooted' as WC
- JF can be seen as not quite as aggressive as WC. JF tends to rely more on countering/intercepting then WC's constant aggressive pressure.
Again, this is from my limited knowledge of both systems.
Cthulhu
Similarities:
- centerline theory
- immovable elbow principle
- economy of motion
- chi sao/gerk
- gate system for defining areas of defense
Differences:
- JF has a greater arsenal of kicks
- JF use of strong side forward
- larger array of hand techniques for JF
- JF has more mobile footwork...not as 'rooted' as WC
- JF can be seen as not quite as aggressive as WC. JF tends to rely more on countering/intercepting then WC's constant aggressive pressure.
Again, this is from my limited knowledge of both systems.
Cthulhu
There is a great book out on the market that answers this EXACT question. It is called "Wing Chun Kung Fu Jeet Kune Do : A Comparison". The Wing Chun is performed by William Cheung and the JKD is done by Ted Wong. Both of these people know their stuff.
Thanks
Jeremy Bays
Thanks
Jeremy Bays
OP
I know of the book, but haven't read it yet. There are some things you may need to consider, though:
1) William Cheung is teaching what he calls 'Classical Wing Chun'. According to Cheung, the Wing Chun taught by Yip Man was not the 'correct' Wing Chun. He claims that Yip Man took him into confidence and explained that (to make a loooong story short) Yip taught a 'modified' form of Wing Chun, with less mobile footwork and stances. Cheung further claims that Yip Man taught this 'Classical Wing Chun' (with the 'correct' footwork) only to him. Until I see this book, I don't know if Cheung is demonstrating his 'Classical Wing Chun' or the Wing Chun taught to all the other Yip Man students.
2) I would also have to review the book to judge the JKD aspects. Most of the people coming out of Mr. Wong's camp seem to be from the 'Original JKD' group, who claim that JKD should be taught as it was when Lee died, without the FMA stuff Inosanto had added (and in fact, was already in the process of adding before Lee died). So, if Mr. Wong is demonstrating JKD as a set, static, system, I would have a problem with the JKD material, though that would be a personal thing and should have no bearing on anyone else's judgement of the book. Of course, I could also rear the ugly head of Mr. Wong's certification once again. I think that's been beaten into the ground, though, and like we've said previously, has no bearing on Mr. Wong's actual abilities, which, I am told, are very respectable.
:lol: All of this babbling to basically say that I can't give any info on the book until I actually read it. Sheesh. I ramble more than Tolkein <duck>.
Cthulhu
1) William Cheung is teaching what he calls 'Classical Wing Chun'. According to Cheung, the Wing Chun taught by Yip Man was not the 'correct' Wing Chun. He claims that Yip Man took him into confidence and explained that (to make a loooong story short) Yip taught a 'modified' form of Wing Chun, with less mobile footwork and stances. Cheung further claims that Yip Man taught this 'Classical Wing Chun' (with the 'correct' footwork) only to him. Until I see this book, I don't know if Cheung is demonstrating his 'Classical Wing Chun' or the Wing Chun taught to all the other Yip Man students.
2) I would also have to review the book to judge the JKD aspects. Most of the people coming out of Mr. Wong's camp seem to be from the 'Original JKD' group, who claim that JKD should be taught as it was when Lee died, without the FMA stuff Inosanto had added (and in fact, was already in the process of adding before Lee died). So, if Mr. Wong is demonstrating JKD as a set, static, system, I would have a problem with the JKD material, though that would be a personal thing and should have no bearing on anyone else's judgement of the book. Of course, I could also rear the ugly head of Mr. Wong's certification once again. I think that's been beaten into the ground, though, and like we've said previously, has no bearing on Mr. Wong's actual abilities, which, I am told, are very respectable.
:lol: All of this babbling to basically say that I can't give any info on the book until I actually read it. Sheesh. I ramble more than Tolkein <duck>.
Cthulhu
I have seen the book (spent about 15 minutes with it in the bookstore) but have not READ it completely.
The book is laid out very well. It is set up like "This is a Wing Chun Punch and this is a JKD punch" ...OK look they are the same.
Then it does into detail about what makes the punch a punch and the read says "oh, I guess they are not the same".
BOTH people, William Cheung and Ted Wong, demostrate great technique. The techniques pictured are fairly basic so there is not too much worry about ...this is classical Wing Chun not True Wing Chun and this is OJKD not JKD Concepts, etc. It is basic information.
Please do not buy this book looking for the Holy Grail of Wing Chun or JKD. This is not the book you want. This book is a comparison between friends. It is kind of like being part of a private conversation between two great martial artist.
Thanks
Jeremy Bays
The book is laid out very well. It is set up like "This is a Wing Chun Punch and this is a JKD punch" ...OK look they are the same.
Then it does into detail about what makes the punch a punch and the read says "oh, I guess they are not the same".
BOTH people, William Cheung and Ted Wong, demostrate great technique. The techniques pictured are fairly basic so there is not too much worry about ...this is classical Wing Chun not True Wing Chun and this is OJKD not JKD Concepts, etc. It is basic information.
Please do not buy this book looking for the Holy Grail of Wing Chun or JKD. This is not the book you want. This book is a comparison between friends. It is kind of like being part of a private conversation between two great martial artist.
Thanks
Jeremy Bays
Could you clarify the Wing Chun bit? Here are the two versions of Yip Man Wing Chun according to William Cheung:
1) Modified Wing Chun - The Wing Chun taught to all of Yip Man's students
2) Classical Wing Chun - The Wing Chun supposedly taught only to William Cheung
So with these descriptions, could you say which is in that book?
Cthulhu
1) Modified Wing Chun - The Wing Chun taught to all of Yip Man's students
2) Classical Wing Chun - The Wing Chun supposedly taught only to William Cheung
So with these descriptions, could you say which is in that book?
Cthulhu
F
fist of fury
Guest
Isn't it funny how so many mastera learn a "secret" form or technique that can never be verified.
I don't know how famaliar you are with chueng style or traditional wingchun as he calls and and the Yip Man style.
If you have a good internet connection go to
http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/empty.asp
it some some clips of chueng style WC, as far as Bruce lee from what I've heard is that he never learned the second form which contains alot of WC/WT's foot work.
I've heard almost the opposite, in that chum kil was the last form he learned. Maybe we can meet in the middle and say he was beginning to learn the second form
However, I would have to say that he had to have had some knowledge of the second forms, as one of his biggest gripes with WC was the footwork. Of course, this could also be interpreted as him not having learned the form, or not having learned it adequately.
Okay, this will settle it: let's go on that 'Crossing Over' show and get that guy to ask Bruce for us!
Cthulhu
F
fist of fury
Guest
That sounds like a good ideaOriginally posted by Cthulhu
I've heard almost the opposite, in that chum kil was the last form he learned. Maybe we can meet in the middle and say he was beginning to learn the second form
However, I would have to say that he had to have had some knowledge of the second forms, as one of his biggest gripes with WC was the footwork. Of course, this could also be interpreted as him not having learned the form, or not having learned it adequately.
Okay, this will settle it: let's go on that 'Crossing Over' show and get that guy to ask Bruce for us!
Cthulhu
K
Kirk
Guest
Nevertheless, it's impressive as all heck that he was kickin' butt
so well without finishing his WC training. In "The Curse Of The
Dragon", which is a documentary about Bruce, the story is this.
Bruce was pretty much teaching WC in his Jun Fan Gung Fu school
in China Town, in Oakland. The Gung Fu community there didn't
like Bruce teaching to non Chinese, and a man was sent. After
a quick exchange of words, "Yes I can" - "No you can't" type of
thing, the deal was, "Let's fight .. if I beat you(Bruce) then you
close your school, if you win then you can teach whomever you
want. So they strap it on, right there in Bruce's school, and
Bruce whooped his tail good. He was VERY disapointed in the
fact that it took the time that it took, and in the shape that he
himself was in. So he studied other arts INTENTLY, and came up
with JKD. A big influence was boxing, because it was a stick and
move type philosophy. Some say (outside of the movie, this is
what I've read elsewhere, in various places) that WC isn't as
static as Bruce said it was, and the fact was that he didn't study
it long enough to learn how dynamic it was.
Anyways .. (I digress a lot) no one here disputes that Bruce
didn't complete his WC training. Yet he kicked the crap outta
anyone that challenged him. The guy that came to his school
representing the G.F. community in chinatown was a Gung Fu
master, with like a 20 yr h istory of teaching. In the making
of Return Of The Dragon, there were a BOAT LOAD of Chinese
martial artists brought in as extras. There were constant
challenges made to Bruce, and Bruce kicked tail each and
every time, and within a short period of time. I don't really
care what who where Bruce studied. He had a commitment
to training, and studying that made him a great martial artist.
Ed Parker called him "Walking Death", and said that Bruce was
best martial artist he'd ever seen. It seems that in a LOT of
M.A. forums on the net, that there's a new fad of trashing
Bruce as "just a movie martial artist" or saying "I designed
my own system too, so what if Bruce did?". I'm tired of hearing
it. So many of us westerners owe our M.A. pursuits to Bruce,
because M.A. films before him were few and far between, and
were NOWHERE near the popularity of Bruce Lee's films, or
Bruce Lee himself. IMHO, he made M.A. a mainstream idea,
and made studying it "cool", in the U.S. I don't study WC
JFGF, or JKD, but I give credit where credit is due.
so well without finishing his WC training. In "The Curse Of The
Dragon", which is a documentary about Bruce, the story is this.
Bruce was pretty much teaching WC in his Jun Fan Gung Fu school
in China Town, in Oakland. The Gung Fu community there didn't
like Bruce teaching to non Chinese, and a man was sent. After
a quick exchange of words, "Yes I can" - "No you can't" type of
thing, the deal was, "Let's fight .. if I beat you(Bruce) then you
close your school, if you win then you can teach whomever you
want. So they strap it on, right there in Bruce's school, and
Bruce whooped his tail good. He was VERY disapointed in the
fact that it took the time that it took, and in the shape that he
himself was in. So he studied other arts INTENTLY, and came up
with JKD. A big influence was boxing, because it was a stick and
move type philosophy. Some say (outside of the movie, this is
what I've read elsewhere, in various places) that WC isn't as
static as Bruce said it was, and the fact was that he didn't study
it long enough to learn how dynamic it was.
Anyways .. (I digress a lot) no one here disputes that Bruce
didn't complete his WC training. Yet he kicked the crap outta
anyone that challenged him. The guy that came to his school
representing the G.F. community in chinatown was a Gung Fu
master, with like a 20 yr h istory of teaching. In the making
of Return Of The Dragon, there were a BOAT LOAD of Chinese
martial artists brought in as extras. There were constant
challenges made to Bruce, and Bruce kicked tail each and
every time, and within a short period of time. I don't really
care what who where Bruce studied. He had a commitment
to training, and studying that made him a great martial artist.
Ed Parker called him "Walking Death", and said that Bruce was
best martial artist he'd ever seen. It seems that in a LOT of
M.A. forums on the net, that there's a new fad of trashing
Bruce as "just a movie martial artist" or saying "I designed
my own system too, so what if Bruce did?". I'm tired of hearing
it. So many of us westerners owe our M.A. pursuits to Bruce,
because M.A. films before him were few and far between, and
were NOWHERE near the popularity of Bruce Lee's films, or
Bruce Lee himself. IMHO, he made M.A. a mainstream idea,
and made studying it "cool", in the U.S. I don't study WC
JFGF, or JKD, but I give credit where credit is due.
I waited eagerly for 'Curse of the Dragon' to come out way back when. When I finally got it, I was a bit disappointed. Far too much sensationalism for my tastes.
A&E had a Biography show on Bruce before 'Curse of the Dragon' came out that was excellent. Unfortunately, after the release of 'Curse of the Dragon', they started to splice some of that into their Biography episode and pretty much ruined it.
Re: Enter the Dragon
Yes, there were many challenges made to Bruce during the filming, but he didn't 'kick tail each and every time' simply because he didn't respond to the vast majority of these challenges. It was really a no-win situation for him: if he won the challenge, the challenger could say Bruce beat him up unjustly; if the challenger got a lucky hit in, Bruce's skills would be made to look inadequate.
However, Bob Wall and others tell of an account where Bruce did fight one of the challengers. He utterly humiliated the guy...kicking his *** while telling him how he was kicking his ***. Afterwards, the defeated challenger went back about his business a wee bit bloodied.
I've read an account that during filming of "Enter the Dragon", a promotional reel was filmed, sort of like a trailer for the movie. Supposedly, this reel had footage of Lee really fighting one of the challengers. Unfortunately, it appears this bit of footage has been lost or destroyed over the years. It'd be damn near priceless today, if a copy was still around.
Ahna Capri, one of the star actresses in the movie, has some 8mm footage that (I think) has yet to be released to the public. There was an Inside Kung Fu magazine article on the footage, and I believe there was some of Bruce fighting and/or sparring. I hope this is released soon. I don't think it's very long, though, which may be a reason why it's not out for purchase yet.
Cthulhu
A&E had a Biography show on Bruce before 'Curse of the Dragon' came out that was excellent. Unfortunately, after the release of 'Curse of the Dragon', they started to splice some of that into their Biography episode and pretty much ruined it.
Re: Enter the Dragon
Yes, there were many challenges made to Bruce during the filming, but he didn't 'kick tail each and every time' simply because he didn't respond to the vast majority of these challenges. It was really a no-win situation for him: if he won the challenge, the challenger could say Bruce beat him up unjustly; if the challenger got a lucky hit in, Bruce's skills would be made to look inadequate.
However, Bob Wall and others tell of an account where Bruce did fight one of the challengers. He utterly humiliated the guy...kicking his *** while telling him how he was kicking his ***. Afterwards, the defeated challenger went back about his business a wee bit bloodied.
I've read an account that during filming of "Enter the Dragon", a promotional reel was filmed, sort of like a trailer for the movie. Supposedly, this reel had footage of Lee really fighting one of the challengers. Unfortunately, it appears this bit of footage has been lost or destroyed over the years. It'd be damn near priceless today, if a copy was still around.
Ahna Capri, one of the star actresses in the movie, has some 8mm footage that (I think) has yet to be released to the public. There was an Inside Kung Fu magazine article on the footage, and I believe there was some of Bruce fighting and/or sparring. I hope this is released soon. I don't think it's very long, though, which may be a reason why it's not out for purchase yet.
Cthulhu
K
Kirk
Guest
In "Curse" they said that he stood up to a lot of challenges during
the filming. Maybe that's the sensationalized part you're talking
about. As for the reasons why he didn't fight .. in your opinion,
do you think that is one of the reasons why school vs. school
challenges have ended for the most part?
Also, note that there was one guy (name unremembered) that
came at Bruce with a broken bottle (as per the script)? He
admits to being kicked by Bruce, being thrown back about 30
feet, and breaking the arm of a guy that tried to catch him.
Now that's a fierce kick!
the filming. Maybe that's the sensationalized part you're talking
about. As for the reasons why he didn't fight .. in your opinion,
do you think that is one of the reasons why school vs. school
challenges have ended for the most part?
Also, note that there was one guy (name unremembered) that
came at Bruce with a broken bottle (as per the script)? He
admits to being kicked by Bruce, being thrown back about 30
feet, and breaking the arm of a guy that tried to catch him.
Now that's a fierce kick!
Lee didn't fight because he was such a big name in Hong Kong at the time, that it just wasn't worth it for him. I think school vs. school fights dwindled due to: 1) police intervention and 2) common sense.
The person you're referring to is Bob Wall. Before the filming the take that ended up in the movie, there was a take that went wrong. In Hong Kong, they didn't have the fake glass bottles used in Hollywood...they had to use the real thing. Bruce was supposed to kick Bob Wall's arms in such as way so as to knock both broken bottles out of his hand. Well, during the take, he didn't kick hard enough and ended up cutting his hand on one of the bottles.
Later, after having the cut sewn up, they did another take. The kick threw Wall back into some stuntmen, one of whom broke an arm. It wasn't 30 feet, though, or anywhere near it. I believe that particular kick is what ended up in the movie, so you can see that for yourself.
Also, look for a young Jackie Chan getting his neck broken by Bruce!
Cthulhu
The person you're referring to is Bob Wall. Before the filming the take that ended up in the movie, there was a take that went wrong. In Hong Kong, they didn't have the fake glass bottles used in Hollywood...they had to use the real thing. Bruce was supposed to kick Bob Wall's arms in such as way so as to knock both broken bottles out of his hand. Well, during the take, he didn't kick hard enough and ended up cutting his hand on one of the bottles.
Later, after having the cut sewn up, they did another take. The kick threw Wall back into some stuntmen, one of whom broke an arm. It wasn't 30 feet, though, or anywhere near it. I believe that particular kick is what ended up in the movie, so you can see that for yourself.
Also, look for a young Jackie Chan getting his neck broken by Bruce!
Cthulhu
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