Wing Chun Ranking

[KamonGuy2]

Out of interest what are the circumstances they train in, what is their lineage and how far down are they (without naming specific names), I had someone come out of a particular school that was descended from Choy Sheung Ting. He had been training for 6 years, I had been training for 12 months under sifu Fung, and his Wing Chun was nowhere as good as Mine HOWEVER he was trained by an instructor who had about 2 instructors under him and he trainined within a classroom environment, where as I trained personally with Sifu one on one. The point is this, at the end it did not come down to the individual system as such but the conditions that he had been taught under. I think you will find that there are good and bad students under every flavour of Wing Chun.

I appreciate what you are saying. Howver, in Kamon the instructors have to be good to be given that position. It is tempting with the numbers of students we have to open up another 40 classes in London, but it would mean that the quality would lessen.

If anyone is to be given the position of instructor, they should know how to fight (I'm not talking UFC standard, but at least be able to put a bit into practice), they should know the sytem to a high level (ie know why they are doing the forms) and they should be a good teacher!

The guys I trained with had none of these qualities. I am not sure which instructor they had trained under (could be more than one as VT is a big organisation)

I basically put them under pressure and they buckled. I am not exactly the best WC guy around. I have trained for a while and I am good enough to hold my own, but there are people out there who could give me a run form my money, no question

But these guys had nothing. It was as if they had been taught wrong on purpose!

 

[Spartan]

The progression rate seems like it's slower in WC than in other systems? Is there any truth in this?

 

[profesormental]

Greetings.

What it all boils down to is the specific instructor. Each will teach at different rates, qualities, order, emphasis, etc. And the students will absorb and attain skill at their own pace too.

The Wing Chun Rankings are an arbitrary yet somewhat organized way to teach a certain minimum skills and knowledge.

I not only teach group classes, I teach private classes as to asses individual concerns and learning styles of my students. It is part of the training curriculum.

It is unfortunate, yet finding substandard practitioners is the result of too many variables to just pin it on one.

Hope that helps.


Juan M. Mercado

 

[tenth1]

i could not agree more with bcbernum, the environment in which learning occurs the dedication of the student and how much they train as opposed to how long they have trained has a huge impact on the ability of the student

 

[brocklee]

The progression rate seems like it's slower in WC than in other systems? Is there any truth in this?

None, WC was created to be taught and mastered in 6-7 years. It's what's coming outta the gene pool that makes it seem a bit slower

 

[KamonGuy2]

Yeah to be honest you could be taught all the moves in about a year, but the wing chun system requires 'muscle memory and a development of 'sensitivity', which takes a while.

Saying that, I do know karate and TKD schools where you could get your black belt in two years!!!!

I like to think that anyone who has done wing chun for around five years is good, but as BCBernam (forgive my spelling) says, it comes down to how much is learnt, how hard the student studies and how good the teacher is

 

[brocklee]

Yeah to be honest you could be taught all the moves in about a year, but the wing chun system requires 'muscle memory and a development of 'sensitivity', which takes a while.

Saying that, I do know karate and TKD schools where you could get your black belt in two years!!!!

I like to think that anyone who has done wing chun for around five years is good, but as BCBernam (forgive my spelling) says, it comes down to how much is learnt, how hard the student studies and how good the teacher is

Well, it requires some muscle memory. My first instructor's theory revolved around muscle memory and all we did was train combo drills and repetitive fore arm conditioning drills. It was very fun and game like. My sifu now has opened me to the idea that we don't want to get into the muscle memory game because it will leave you hanging when you are placed in a position to where you have to think to get out but cant because you're dependent upon muscle memory and aren't used to thinking. Instead of building muscle memory, because we don't use them in our style anyways, we simply work on aligning the joints with our basic attacks. The moves are so simple and come one after another, which gives the appearance that they're trained as combos but they're not. I would say the focus of muscle memory should be directed toward maintaining center and the alignment of your structure. The rest is bone and joint work.

 

[KamonGuy2]

Well, it requires some muscle memory. My first instructor's theory revolved around muscle memory and all we did was train combo drills and repetitive fore arm conditioning drills. It was very fun and game like. My sifu now has opened me to the idea that we don't want to get into the muscle memory game because it will leave you hanging when you are placed in a position to where you have to think to get out but cant because you're dependent upon muscle memory and aren't used to thinking. Instead of building muscle memory, because we don't use them in our style anyways, we simply work on aligning the joints with our basic attacks. The moves are so simple and come one after another, which gives the appearance that they're trained as combos but they're not. I would say the focus of muscle memory should be directed toward maintaining center and the alignment of your structure. The rest is bone and joint work.

What!!?? That's the whole point of wing chun. You don't want to start thinking about how to get out of a clinch or if someone throws a punch you don't want to be left there thinking 'how do I deal with this?'

Muscle memory is extremely important to help you react in situations at a split seconds notice. If someone grabs your throat, your reactions should be built in. If you don't react, your attacker will rip your throat out.

I would go back to your Sifu and point this out to him.
The mind freezes in real confrontations (I have been in a few) and you will not be able to use your mind.

It is the same if someone rugby tackles you etc. You need to sprawl or react staright away or he will take you to the ground.

 

[CheukMo]

I would say muscle memory would be the main "concept" to train around. However, I think it is impossible to memorize (muscularly) every possible attack and counter-attack. Therefore, training in different combo's and changing them up would be the best of both. When you hit (or block, etc.) straight with no thought, you're where you need to be.

 

[brocklee]

Yes, my last message is worded kinda funny. I'm agreeing with muscle memory but am saying that it should be limited to the simple movements. The muscle memory should revolve around the movements from our forms as appose to the combos used in timing drills. It is to my understanding that people become attached to these combos and build those as muscle memory. My sifu teaches us to not train those as muscle memory drills because those 3 hit combo drills may be one hit too many for what you may need at the time. Each move, in its singular form, should be seen as it's own little combo in itself and all you end up doing is going around connecting these little movements, which end up appearing to be a large combo. You don't want to use these 3 hit timing drill combos in a fight because it makes you less agile due to the fact that your muscle memory is over riding your logic and desire after step 1 or 2.

I'm not sure why you wouldn't want to think during a fight, I know I sure want to. I want to think clearer though, and that's what the simple muscle memory helps out with. I don't have to think about how a punch is going to be thrown or a block is going placed because I practice those for many hours. I do, however, want to write out my attack as it is happening. I want to be thinking about how I'm going initiate contact, which lines I'm going to use to get in and whats too much?.

Maybe Im just weird

 

[KamonGuy2]

Yes, my last message is worded kinda funny. I'm agreeing with muscle memory but am saying that it should be limited to the simple movements.

I'm not sure why you wouldn't want to think during a fight, I know I sure want to. I want to think clearer though, and that's what the simple muscle memory helps out with. I don't have to think about how a punch is going to be thrown or a block is going placed because I practice those for many hours. I do, however, want to write out my attack as it is happening. I want to be thinking about how I'm going initiate contact, which lines I'm going to use to get in and whats too much?.

Maybe Im just weird

If you have been in a fight (I don't know whether you have or not) or have been attacked, your brain does not function as per normal.

Psychologists have called this the survival element of our brain

It's like a rabbit caught in a headlights - you just react. Either move or stay frozen. Or if you saw a kid in the road and a bus coming. Some people freeze and some people jump in to save the kid.

In a fight it is a very similar experience. You aren't really conscious about moves you do your body just reacts.

We try and train wing chun so it is like walking up the stairs. You don't think about moving your leg to the next step, you just do it.

If you think of chi sao training - you try to think as little as possible. If you think it betrays your energy and people can read you.
You want your chi sao to be more reactive - if your opponent pushes down, your arm moves around. If your arm pushes to the side your arm moves around.

It is like if someone throws a punch. You don't want to be caught thinking 'okay that punch is coming in, which block is best?'. The punch will be so fast you want your body to just respond automatically.

I hope this kind of clarifies it a bit.

 

[brocklee]

If you have been in a fight (I don't know whether you have or not) or have been attacked, your brain does not function as per normal.

Psychologists have called this the survival element of our brain

It's like a rabbit caught in a headlights - you just react. Either move or stay frozen. Or if you saw a kid in the road and a bus coming. Some people freeze and some people jump in to save the kid.

In a fight it is a very similar experience. You aren't really conscious about moves you do your body just reacts.

We try and train wing chun so it is like walking up the stairs. You don't think about moving your leg to the next step, you just do it.

If you think of chi sao training - you try to think as little as possible. If you think it betrays your energy and people can read you.
You want your chi sao to be more reactive - if your opponent pushes down, your arm moves around. If your arm pushes to the side your arm moves around.

It is like if someone throws a punch. You don't want to be caught thinking 'okay that punch is coming in, which block is best?'. The punch will be so fast you want your body to just respond automatically.

I hope this kind of clarifies it a bit.

No, it does. Completely. I think we're agreeing on the same thing. It should be like walking up the stairs and natural, but not every set of stairs has the same amount of steps nor are they the same height and width. So we are trained to climb steps but make last minute adjustments so that we don't understep and fall down. So we're both agreeing just giving different circumstances.

A large portion of my training, and this may differ to yours and others, is to focus on staying relaxed when confronted and during training. Doing so allows the eyes to not focus in and the brow stays flat.
I have used WC many times and it has always worked out well. There have been times that I lost, but the guy in front of me will always remember our crossing.

 

[Tanizaki]

None, WC was created to be taught and mastered in 6-7 years.

Is the above statement accurate?

 

[KamonGuy2]

Is the above statement accurate?

It's an interesting statement. The majority of wing chun moves/forms can certainly be learnt within 6 years. Most people in Kamon (if they train four times a week) can obtain a black sash in this time, but it is usually given after a decade.

It is certainly more accurate to say that wing chun is one of the quickest arts to learn. In TKD I have found that it takes a decade just to get into the swing of it. Nothing wrong with that - I don't think time is a reflection on skill (I know people who have been doing martial arts for two years who are better than some people who have been doing it for ten!).

I know that when wing chun was first created, the soldiers in the various dynasties needed to train an art quickly and effectively as the enemies were looming.

Bruce Lee did around 2 years of wing chun before moving to the US, and he was pretty good lol

 

[brocklee]

Is the above statement accurate?

If you research the history or storyline related to WC, you'll find this to be true. My memory's a bit cloudy but hit had to do with training Kung-fu during a dynasty that banded MA.

 

[CheukMo]

If you research the history or storyline related to WC, you'll find this to be true. My memory's a bit cloudy but hit had to do with training Kung-fu during a dynasty that banded MA.

The Qing (Ching) Dynasty.

 

[ed-swckf]

Is the above statement accurate?

I personally believe that whilst you can learn the system fairly quickly it takes a lot longer to master it. I don't think you could put a time on how long it takes to master it.

 

[brocklee]

I personally believe that whilst you can learn the system fairly quickly it takes a lot longer to master it. I don't think you could put a time on how long it takes to master it.

That's true because a lot people are accustom to training 3-5 hours a week, which isn't bad being a western civilization. If you we're to up that to 15-20 hours a week and remained dedicated to the art, its very feasible. It's all dependent upon how much commitment the practitioner is willing to give.

 

[KamonGuy2]

It is also difficult to measure when someone masters wing chun. I have learnt all the forms, all the drills (within our particular style), can fight well, can perform chi sao to an okay level, but I do not feel that I have mastered it any way shape or form

I know that someone once mentioned that in order to become a master you had to alter something in the forms.

There are a couple of Sifus in Sheffield who claimed to be Masters, but my brother went to the class and found that the instructor did not know the pole form or third form.

Bruce Lee was branded a Master of kung fu, but barely touched upon wing chun.

I think generally, an average person who trains hard will be a good fighter after 6 years of training

 

[brocklee]

It is also difficult to measure when someone masters wing chun. I have learnt all the forms, all the drills (within our particular style), can fight well, can perform chi sao to an okay level, but I do not feel that I have mastered it any way shape or form

I know that someone once mentioned that in order to become a master you had to alter something in the forms.

There are a couple of Sifus in Sheffield who claimed to be Masters, but my brother went to the class and found that the instructor did not know the pole form or third form.

Bruce Lee was branded a Master of kung fu, but barely touched upon wing chun.

I think generally, an average person who trains hard will be a good fighter after 6 years of training

Bruce lee trained for 2 years and was pretty good at chi sao. Take a look at google, I think there's a few vids of him there.

I believe a master is self pro-claimed. If you claim yourself to be a master though, another master may come see if you really are.

Lemme know if I'm wrong but mastering would have to do with knowing every motion/form and having a firm knowledge and understanding of the movements. They would know all 3 forms, pole, dummy, sword, chi sao and history of WC. They can apply these movements to both demonstrations and fights. Right?