Wing Chun, Pros and cons

[marshallbd]

A while back in another thread I asked for some advise on different styles of CMA to look into, (Bad knee and ankle) and had some interesting suggestions. One of them was Wing Chun. Wing Chun seems to have some people who feel very passionate about it in one way or the other. I recieved a private email telling me it is not a very impressive art and others who swear it is "THE" art. I do not know either way. Could anyone with constructive information on it please give me detailed answers as to why they have the opinion of Wing Chun that they do. Please explain what you see as the pro's and cons of this art. Thanks in advance for your replies. Please keep your replies specific to this art...

 

[Cthulhu]

Really, the best thing to do would be to see if there is a WC school in your area and find out if you can sit in on a class and determine for yourself whether or not it would suit you. You and the potential instructor are really the only ones who can determine if that particular system and instruction would aggravate your injuries.

Cthulhu

 

[MJS]

A while back in another thread I asked for some advise on different styles of CMA to look into, (Bad knee and ankle) and had some interesting suggestions. One of them was Wing Chun. Wing Chun seems to have some people who feel very passionate about it in one way or the other. I recieved a private email telling me it is not a very impressive art and others who swear it is "THE" art. I do not know either way. Could anyone with constructive information on it please give me detailed answers as to why they have the opinion of Wing Chun that they do. Please explain what you see as the pro's and cons of this art. Thanks in advance for your replies. Please keep your replies specific to this art...

I also agree with Cthulhu. In order to really get the feel of the art, it has to be YOU that has to make that choice. Of course, a student of that art is going to tell you that it is "The Art", but ultimately, you are the one that has to watch a class or try out a free class or two, and then make your choice. Talking to the other students and the Inst. is also a big part in making that choice.

Good luck!!!

Mike

 

[marshallbd]

I also agree with Cthulhu. In order to really get the feel of the art, it has to be YOU that has to make that choice. Of course, a student of that art is going to tell you that it is "The Art", but ultimately, you are the one that has to watch a class or try out a free class or two, and then make your choice. Talking to the other students and the Inst. is also a big part in making that choice.

Good luck!!!

Mike

Thanks Cthulu and Mike for your responses. I understand that I need to see and feel it for myself, but I am interested in others opinions as to why or why not they feel this art is a worthwhile art for study. I look forward to more responses! :asian:

 

[zakb]

Well. I did several martial arts before I took up Wing Chun. Even after 3 yearso of chinese kickoxing i didn't feel very comfortable with my ability to defend myself if something did happen on the streets. I would say, wing chun is a lot more self-defence orientated in the sense that almost everything you learn, whether it is classical or non-traditional can usually be applied. The simplicity of the techniques make it more natural once you've built them into your muslce memory. It's better to be able to do one or two techniques that you can actually perform well than to know a whole string of techniques that are not very effective. In my wing chun club, fitness is one of the key elements they train you on. But the fitness is mainly non-aerobic, e.g. developing the speed and dynamic energy of your punches by doing centre line clap press-ups. It is all a lot more focussed. I've found that even though we don't do full contact sparring in my club, my sparring is actually 10 times better than when i was training it everyday in kickboxing. That's because you can take what you learn in WC and apply it to almost all other forms of fighting. Even grappling which can be improved by the relaxed use of energy.

But I guess the best thing about it is that it's fun to learn. Once you've got through all the nitty gritty basics and worked hard to develop your structure, (i've done WC for about 4 years) then you can go on and enjoy developing your chi sao. Done in the right, cooperative spirit, chi sao can be extremely fun, keeps you wanting to learn more and develop, which always helps if your motivation after 3 years starts to drop.

Cons: personally i haven't seen many. Some clubs train differently to others, but The fundamentals Should remain the same. Perhaps a little more with full contact sparring could be achieved instead of just feeding techniques. But then the martial art becomes more like Jeet Kune Do. But in fact, good JKD can't be achieved without a strong foundation in the uses of energy from Wing Chun.

 

[MJS]

Thanks Cthulu and Mike for your responses. I understand that I need to see and feel it for myself, but I am interested in others opinions as to why or why not they feel this art is a worthwhile art for study. I look forward to more responses! :asian:

You're welcome! I'll do my best to answer this question. From what I've seen of it, it almost seems like depending on who you study under, will determiine the quality of instruction that you'll get. Its definately a very good in close art. The trapping skills that you'll get from WC are very good. You'll also improve on your sensitivity. As a stand up art, it appears to be pretty effective, IMO. The one thing that it seems to lack is ground skills. I do realize that rolling on the ground is not always the best option, but you'll be glad that you had some of those skills in the event that you found yourself there. They claim, and I hear alot about this from Emin Boztepe and his brand of WC, that he teachs anti-grappling techs. Thats fine and dandy, but IMO, in order to teach someone how to defend themselves on the ground, you yourself need to have some ground skills. That would be like me trying to teach someone how to fly a plane, when I've never flown one myself.

Just a few thoughts and opinions. I hope that this was a help!

Mike

 

[Phil Elmore]

Wing Chun, when taught well, is an effective, efficient infighting system. While cross-training in grappling (arguably a blind spot in Wing Chun) is necessary if your school doesn't include this in the curriculum, you'll derive quite a bit of benefit from Wing Chun training.

 

[RevelationX]

A while back in another thread I asked for some advise on different styles of CMA to look into, (Bad knee and ankle) and had some interesting suggestions. One of them was Wing Chun. Wing Chun seems to have some people who feel very passionate about it in one way or the other. I recieved a private email telling me it is not a very impressive art and others who swear it is "THE" art. I do not know either way. Could anyone with constructive information on it please give me detailed answers as to why they have the opinion of Wing Chun that they do. Please explain what you see as the pro's and cons of this art. Thanks in advance for your replies. Please keep your replies specific to this art...

I am a Wing Chun stylist.

Here is my take on "traditional" Wing Chun:

PROS-

"Theory of Conservation of Motion" (gives movement more speed, no excess movement for opponent to measure, or read, and gives him less time to react.) It follows physics' principle "Shortest distance between two points is a straight line."

"Theory of Conservation of Energy" (nothing is wasted, each movment requires the least amount of power to achive desired effect. Your opponent loses too much energy he can no longer fight, or he gets lazy or sloppy then allows for an opening for defeat.

"Center Line Theory" (Based on the fact that most of our body's vital points are located along a vertical center that runs down the middle of our body. This also alots to a strategic advantage to control the centerline as well as the angle of attack is to control the fight and thus, the outcome.

"Simultaneous Attack and Defense" (each movement, single or two handed, may serve as your attacking hand or defensive hand, depending on the timing and situation within each encounter.

"Emphasis on "Sticking" to your opponent" (While other arts do train this to some degree, Wing Chun puts it above all else for the abilty to "read" your opponent and determine the outcome of the encounter.

"Body Postures/Mechanics = Power" (If compared to the Songs, Treatise, and Poems, of various "internal" arts the "shape" of the art follows most, if not all, of the rules concerning the development of power, and the conversion of Qi to Jin.
Anyone who has trained in the art can attest to the almost effortless amount of power developed within the various WC tech. with very little Li (muscular power) needed to produce such power.

"Use of 'Combat' related weapons" ( Nothing sporting about an art that promotes the use of eye gouging, elbows, and kicks to crush the knee. And once again, yes, I know other arts use these techs I have not seen an art that devoted ENTIRE forms to train them. If so I stand corrected, but then, this is just ONE example of the effectivness of this art.

"Exstensive use of two-man sets in training" (IMO Nothing other than actual combat can train sensitivity, speed, endurance, reaction, and timing, hand and armbridge conditioning as well as full bore, all out two-man sets with numerous variatons to allow for adjustment and the repetitve then, subconcious learning to take place.

"Use of the Wooden Dummy" ( By far the best training aid (aside from a real partner) to date. It is so effective, MANY other styles use it to hone thier own tech. and skills. Makes your posture more compact, conditions your weapons, and allows for "responsive" shadowboxing so that you get a resistance that trains the mind/body connection more completely than simply punching air. Did I mention that it's a partner that never complains, or gets tired?

"Simplicity of the ENTIRE system" (Kind of speaks for itself. 3 forms (or Katas if you are Japanese oriented , 108 (or 116) wooden dummy forms (movements), two types of footwork (short-range and long-range, and thats about it. Very nice. Takes about 6 months to get familiar with it so it may be useful to you, yet it still takes a lifetime to master.

If I think of any more pros Ill edit this at a later date.

CONS-

Lack of training of "circular" energy. This hinders multiple-combatant proficiency. Not that Wing Chun doesent use circular energy. The circles are very small and oblong, however, and are normally applied within a straitline energy. Many Ba Gua practitioners give most WC guys hell if they are not able to adapt to the energy.

The art is not flashy or visual (see- pros, conv. movement, conv. energy) so it turns some people off in that respect.

Lack of 'Long range" fighting applications. Remedied by footwork and forward energy.

Lack of joint manipulation. Most schools now supplement Chin Na for this specific reason. If your school does not, I recommend specific Chin Na training, or it's Japanese counterpart, Akijujitsu. Wing Chun is a style that harmonizes perfectly with these styles based on it's close fighting range, traps, and sensitvity training.

Lack of ground fighting. IMO the art's most apparent flaw. Primarily the reason why im also training in BJJ now to complete my combat effectivness.

Also, If i come up with more cons I will ammend this section as well.


All in all, I believe Wing Chun to be an effective and amazing system. However, I also believe that there is no ONE perfect art. I would recommend choosing an art that suits your personality, fitness level, age, and goals for training, for various arts speak to different people some more than others.

Good Luck to you all in your training.

 

[marshallbd]

I am a Wing Chun stylist.

Here is my take on "traditional" Wing Chun:

PROS-

"Theory of Conservation of Motion" (gives movement more speed, no excess movement for opponent to measure, or read, and gives him less time to react.) It follows physics' principle "Shortest distance between two points is a straight line."

"Theory of Conservation of Energy" (nothing is wasted, each movment requires the least amount of power to achive desired effect. Your opponent loses too much energy he can no longer fight, or he gets lazy or sloppy then allows for an opening for defeat.

"Center Line Theory" (Based on the fact that most of our body's vital points are located along a vertical center that runs down the middle of our body. This also alots to a strategic advantage to control the centerline as well as the angle of attack is to control the fight and thus, the outcome.

"Simultaneous Attack and Defense" (each movement, single or two handed, may serve as your attacking hand or defensive hand, depending on the timing and situation within each encounter.

"Emphasis on "Sticking" to your opponent" (While other arts do train this to some degree, Wing Chun puts it above all else for the abilty to "read" your opponent and determine the outcome of the encounter.

"Body Postures/Mechanics = Power" (If compared to the Songs, Treatise, and Poems, of various "internal" arts the "shape" of the art follows most, if not all, of the rules concerning the development of power, and the conversion of Qi to Jin.
Anyone who has trained in the art can attest to the almost effortless amount of power developed within the various WC tech. with very little Li (muscular power) needed to produce such power.

"Use of 'Combat' related weapons" ( Nothing sporting about an art that promotes the use of eye gouging, elbows, and kicks to crush the knee. And once again, yes, I know other arts use these techs I have not seen an art that devoted ENTIRE forms to train them. If so I stand corrected, but then, this is just ONE example of the effectivness of this art.

"Exstensive use of two-man sets in training" (IMO Nothing other than actual combat can train sensitivity, speed, endurance, reaction, and timing, hand and armbridge conditioning as well as full bore, all out two-man sets with numerous variatons to allow for adjustment and the repetitve then, subconcious learning to take place.

"Use of the Wooden Dummy" ( By far the best training aid (aside from a real partner) to date. It is so effective, MANY other styles use it to hone thier own tech. and skills. Makes your posture more compact, conditions your weapons, and allows for "responsive" shadowboxing so that you get a resistance that trains the mind/body connection more completely than simply punching air. Did I mention that it's a partner that never complains, or gets tired?

"Simplicity of the ENTIRE system" (Kind of speaks for itself. 3 forms (or Katas if you are Japanese oriented , 108 (or 116) wooden dummy forms (movements), two types of footwork (short-range and long-range, and thats about it. Very nice. Takes about 6 months to get familiar with it so it may be useful to you, yet it still takes a lifetime to master.

If I think of any more pros Ill edit this at a later date.

CONS-

Lack of training of "circular" energy. This hinders multiple-combatant proficiency. Not that Wing Chun doesent use circular energy. The circles are very small and oblong, however, and are normally applied within a straitline energy. Many Ba Gua practitioners give most WC guys hell if they are not able to adapt to the energy.

The art is not flashy or visual (see- pros, conv. movement, conv. energy) so it turns some people off in that respect.

Lack of 'Long range" fighting applications. Remedied by footwork and forward energy.

Lack of joint manipulation. Most schools now supplement Chin Na for this specific reason. If your school does not, I recommend specific Chin Na training, or it's Japanese counterpart, Akijujitsu. Wing Chun is a style that harmonizes perfectly with these styles based on it's close fighting range, traps, and sensitvity training.

Lack of ground fighting. IMO the art's most apparent flaw. Primarily the reason why im also training in BJJ now to complete my combat effectivness.

Also, If i come up with more cons I will ammend this section as well.


All in all, I believe Wing Chun to be an effective and amazing system. However, I also believe that there is no ONE perfect art. I would recommend choosing an art that suits your personality, <A TITLE="Click for more information about fitness" STYLE="text-decoration: none; border-bottom: medium solid green;" HREF="http://search.targetwords.com/u.search?x=5977|1||||fitness|AA1VDw">fitness</A> level, age, and goals for training, for various arts speak to different people some more than others.

Good Luck to you all in your training.

By far the most INFORMATIVE post on this subject yet. It really lays out the art for me to seriously consider....I thank you for your post... :asian:

 

[bart]

I hear a lot about the lack of grappling in WC and I think that it's not really a weakness. By no means do I think that you should not train grappling if it's something that you want do. But in my opinion much of the problems that people encounter with grappling happens because they've allowed themselves to be "bridged".

Because Wing Chun is a minimalist style handling someone's attempt to "bridge" you becomes very very important. If you have the ability to control range, like you're not backed up against a wall, then you can stop grapplers from approaching you in the same way that you would deal with a strike. In order for someone to grapple, they need to touch you. Dealing with the initial contact or the "bridge" effectively will avoid grappling.

The problem most WC people find with grapplers is that they try to fight the grappler with grappling, when they should deal with them by striking and using the tool set they train. A grab can be defended with an eye strike or a throat strike just as easily as a punch or a kick. Sidestepping and striking can do a lot to neutralize a run-of-the-mill grappler's entry moves.

 

[RevelationX]

I hear a lot about the lack of grappling in WC and I think that it's not really a weakness. By no means do I think that you should not train grappling if it's something that you want do. But in my opinion much of the problems that people encounter with grappling happens because they've allowed themselves to be "bridged".

Because Wing Chun is a minimalist style handling someone's attempt to "bridge" you becomes very very important. If you have the ability to control range, like you're not backed up against a wall, then you can stop grapplers from approaching you in the same way that you would deal with a strike. In order for someone to grapple, they need to touch you. Dealing with the initial contact or the "bridge" effectively will avoid grappling.

The problem most WC people find with grapplers is that they try to fight the grappler with grappling, when they should deal with them by striking and using the tool set they train. A grab can be defended with an eye strike or a throat strike just as easily as a punch or a kick. Sidestepping and striking can do a lot to neutralize a run-of-the-mill grappler's entry moves.

Indeed, I do agree that you should always fight "your" fight. Meaning, utilzing the tools that are the most refined within your arsenal. I am a Wing Chun stylist first and formost (and will always be). However, situational changes in any confrontation can come without warning, many times not the result of your opponents actions. So, the sub-training in grappling is more of a "just in case" that will allow for the practitioner to be more well rounded and more prepared for anything out of the ordinary. We've all heard Murphy's Law right? "What can go wrong, will go wrong."

In martial arts and as well as in life we all encounter unforseen changes that we have litte or no control of. What makes us skillful is our reaction to these changes that allows us to "get back on the horse" per say. The thing that gives us that skill is training for those specific events that by an experience we have encountered before by accident or by the forsight gained through our power of logic and reasoning.

If I am twice the fighter than my opponent who so happens to be a grappler, and in my advancement I step into a hole in the ground, twist my ankle, and fall to the ground, he then has me in "his" fight. While this is a far-fetched hypothetical situation, you can understand directly what im speaking about reagarding "unforseen" circumstances. I believe that it is my duty as a Artist to prepare for the worst, so that I may not have to encounter the worst.

Thanks for your time. Happy Training.