Wing Chun & Jeet Kune Do

[wtxs]

but do you know whose house he is going to hit first

Don't you know? It's all over the news ... he crashed and burn into my house.

 

[Hazardi172]

That is not the same thing as actually stating that in WSLVT you have kicks in the Chum Kiu form. So I think we can cut Juany some slack for not reacting to what you posted.

He reacted to say that I was wrong to question , seems quite a biased way to approach!

 

[KPM]

He reacted to say that I was wrong to question , seems quite a biased way to approach!

Actually, he said this:

I am talking the SLT, CM and BG forms specifically. I can pull up videos of the remaining Yips and WSL himself if needed. Bruce stopped his study under YM and was off to America when he started the CM form. If there is an empty hand form (not drill, form, before the mook, that I am unaware of please enlighten me.

Seems to me he didn't understand what you were saying, since you didn't actually come out and say what you were thinking. Nowhere above does he say you were wrong to question. He just wasn't yet convinced because no one had yet provided him with video showing that Chum Kiu does indeed include footwork. You could have done that rather than just ask a one-liner question that accomplished nothing.

 

[Juany118]

Actually, he said this:

I am talking the SLT, CM and BG forms specifically. I can pull up videos of the remaining Yips and WSL himself if needed. Bruce stopped his study under YM and was off to America when he started the CM form. If there is an empty hand form (not drill, form, before the mook, that I am unaware of please enlighten me.

Seems to me he didn't understand what you were saying, since you didn't actually come out and say what you were thinking. Nowhere above does he say you were wrong to question. He just wasn't yet convinced because no one had yet provided him with video showing that Chum Kiu does indeed include footwork. You could have done that rather than just ask a one-liner question that accomplished nothing.

Yeah since I actually said "oh you guys are right sorry" when you corrected me on CK.

 

[wingchun100]

For the cool hell of it, I am sharing this:

 

[wingchun100]

FYI, I am not saying that is how I do the form, nor am I saying, "Check this out! It's the best Wing Chun EVER!!!"

I just wanted to share a video that showed kicks and stepping.

 

[KPM]

FYI, I am not saying that is how I do the form, nor am I saying, "Check this out! It's the best Wing Chun EVER!!!"

I just wanted to share a video that showed kicks and stepping.

Looks like pretty standard Ip Man Chum Kiu to me. Though his stepping Bong Sau's are a little wanky.

 

[LFJ]

To my knowledge of Yip Man lineage (which personal experience is admittedly limited to TWC and WSL via Sifu gary Lam's system), there are no kicks until you get to the Mook Jong forms outside of TWC.

I am talking the SLT, CM and BG forms specifically. I can pull up videos of the remaining Yips and WSL himself if needed.

You have never even seen YM kick in his CK form?

You give the impression you've been involved in WC for a while, and understand WSLVT, but didn't get past SNT in GL's modified version either?

Interesting revelations.

 

[Vajramusti]

For the cool hell of it, I am sharing this:

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lots of problems with that form

 

[wckf92]

For the cool hell of it, I am sharing this:

What lineage is this?

 

[wingchun100]

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Lots of problems with that form

The point was not that I was sharing the best execution of Chum Kiu ever.

 

[wingchun100]

What lineage is this?

No idea. I was sharing it simply because there was a question as to whether or not there were kicks in Chum Kiu.

"Don't concentrate on the finger."

 

[Hazardi172]

You have never even seen YM kick in his CK form?

You give the impression you've been involved in WC for a while, and understand WSLVT, but didn't get past SNT in GL's modified version either?

Interesting revelations.

While I don't want to attack anyone, this is a logical conclusion from what has been written on this thread. So Juany, can you please confirm where you got to with Gary Lam's wing chun?

I would be a bit disturbed if you said SNT, given what you have alluded to on various threads. And if you say beyond CK, why then no idea of kicks there?

 

[geezer]

?

...I would be a bit disturbed if you said SNT, given what you have alluded to on various threads. And if you say beyond CK, why then no idea of kicks there?

An honest question.

I get the impression that Juany has spent far more time in William Cheung's TWC than he did previously in Gary Lam's WSL derived VT. I can relate. back in the late 70s I trained a bit of the Ho Kam Ming - Augustine Fong branch of WC under someone I now know to be a poorly qualified ...before I later studied the LT-WT branch. At this point I cannot accurately remember much of anything about my time in that first system and would have to refer any questions on that branch to truly knowledgeable people like Joy (Vajramusti). I suspect Juany may be more or less in the same situation.

Oh, and regarding being "a bit disturbed" ...aren't we all on this forum!

 

[Vajramusti]

An honest question.

I get the impression that Juany has spent far more time in William Cheung's TWC than he did previously in Gary Lam's WSL derived VT. I can relate. back in the late 70s I trained a bit of the Ho Kam Ming - Augustine Fong branch of WC under someone I now know to be a poorly qualified ...before I later studied the LT-WT branch. At this point I cannot accurately remember much of anything about my time in that first system and would have to refer any questions on that branch to truly knowledgeable people like Joy (Vajramusti). I suspect Juany may be more or less in the same situation.

Oh, and regarding being "a bit disturbed" ...aren't we all on this forum!

 

[Vajramusti]

Geezer- the guy you mentioned knew next to nothing about what he claimed
about Ho Kam Ming and Augustine Fong. I dropped by and wtached one his classes. His students were throwing
Tkd types of kicks. Absent wing chun structure

 

[LFJ]

I suspect Juany may be more or less in the same situation.

He most definitely is, but still prefers to tell WSLVT practitioners what's what in their system and he "can google it for you if needed".

 

[Hazardi172]

An honest question.

I get the impression that Juany has spent far more time in William Cheung's TWC than he did previously in Gary Lam's WSL derived VT. I can relate. back in the late 70s I trained a bit of the Ho Kam Ming - Augustine Fong branch of WC under someone I now know to be a poorly qualified ...before I later studied the LT-WT branch. At this point I cannot accurately remember much of anything about my time in that first system and would have to refer any questions on that branch to truly knowledgeable people like Joy (Vajramusti). I suspect Juany may be more or less in the same situation.

Oh, and regarding being "a bit disturbed" ...aren't we all on this forum!

Hi Geezer, I think you are correct. But what disturbed me about the situation is that Juany has been arguing pretty forcefully about WSL VT and often using his experience with Gary Lam as evidence that his opinion matters. The point picked up by LFJ makes me question that to the point where I don't understand his motivation

 

[Juany118]

An honest question.

I get the impression that Juany has spent far more time in William Cheung's TWC than he did previously in Gary Lam's WSL derived VT. I can relate. back in the late 70s I trained a bit of the Ho Kam Ming - Augustine Fong branch of WC under someone I now know to be a poorly qualified ...before I later studied the LT-WT branch. At this point I cannot accurately remember much of anything about my time in that first system and would have to refer any questions on that branch to truly knowledgeable people like Joy (Vajramusti). I suspect Juany may be more or less in the same situation.

Oh, and regarding being "a bit disturbed" ...aren't we all on this forum!

This is indeed correct. I even went so far at one point to say the reason I am in TWC is because something about GL WSLVT didn't quite fit. As such I may well forget details of the forms from "back then". At the same time, for the most part, I have TRIED (note I say tried ) to keep my comments when it comes to WSLVT to be based in the ideas of principles, not specific techniques and forms. My brain may be wired differently but I find it easier to recall intellectual concepts over time,vs physical techniques.

This then brings us to the hobgoblin in the room when it comes to WSLVT, and this may be what makes me come off as forceful and perhaps Hazardi being relatively here lacks the context. Most, if not all of the "current" WSLVT practitioners who post around here study at one of the schools under the PB umbrella and something related to that makes my cop "articulable facts" instinct scream. I haven't seen Hazardi post on the complete train of logic that follows but it still drives me nuts on occassion as the following train of logic has been expounded up repeatedly with no independent supporting evidence. Said train of logic starting from the present.

1. Only PB WSLVT is actually true WSLVT. His personal issues did not require any alternation or changes in training. All other WSL students either teach something modified or were declared Sifu's by WSL and his organization when they should not have been.

2. WSLVT is the true translation of YMVT/WC. All other Lineages claiming YM descent are incoherent and broken systems.

These are two extraordinary statements to make in this day and age. That only one student in each generation teaches a "TRUTH." There is a an saying Carl Sagan made popular. "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."

Tbh sometimes when I seem forceful I am actually playing devils advocate. I don't claim to be an expert in anything. Heck there is another TWC person around here who, when I am corrected, I "bow to". When it comes to YM VT/WC in general I will always bow to @Vajramusti, because they will show evidence.

These two claims however are extraordinary and while I am open to being informed that would require more than the fiat statements we have seen to do so. Heck there have been times when I have found videos of PB and WSL teaching together and I have posted it saying "wait? they are doing it this way yet you said the first video with a different guy was right?" The answer I was given was "the internet is a dangerous thing" no more no less.

So let me apologize @Hazardi172 if I sometimes come off forceful. If it is born of anything it is born of a frustration that needs evidence. My life essentially is governed by the idea of "what I know doesn't matter only what I can prove." There are things I am taught even today where I debate with my Sifu. Example he teaches TWC and Inosanto Kali. When there are shared techniques he will try to draw the connection saying both come from the same original source, the Southern Shaolin Temple. I then go "Carl Sagan" on him (in private, never in front of the class), again working from the present.

"Inosanto Kali is based in Filipino and Indochinese Martial arts but it is an amalgam of them. These martial arts also have no written documented history from the practitioners themselves akin to the manuals of HEMA. The occasional record written by a representative of a colonial power is all we have until the 20th century. So we don't know how the creators of this art did so. Biomechanics being what they are it is thus equally possible that this is pure coincidence because the human body can move in so many ways to address any particular circumstance. Oh and lets not even mention the fact that scholars still debate if there is compelling evidence that the Southern Shaolin Temple even existed since stories of it didn't enter the record until those of its destruction popped up in the late 18th century."

(Yes I studied to be a history teacher before I studied to be a police officer. My Sifu actually lets me question like this, I assume, because he understands that it is how my brain must function to do my job and emptying the cup THAT much on going into a school would amount to a personality change that simply isn't possible.)

This is just how my brain works. Now the proof that the arts I learn work are proven to me by watching videos of one of my Sifu's in unsanctioned fights, that it worked for my Sifu and now me operationally in the real world, that it has one sanctioned competitions at tournaments etc. The things regarding "history" however require it's own type of proof however and we all know how steeped in the mythical tradition the history of TMA's are. My brain just seeks the evidence. /shrug

 

[LFJ]

My brain may be wired differently but I find it easier to recall intellectual concepts over time,vs physical techniques.

Is this you trying to claim experience beyond SNT in that system, without remembering there being kicks in CK? Not very convincing.

Most, if not all of the "current" WSLVT practitioners who post around here study at one of the schools under the PB umbrella and something related to that

I was not aware of this. Which such posters do we have?

1. Only PB WSLVT is actually true WSLVT.

No one to my knowledge has said this. In fact, I know you've been told otherwise, repeatedly.

Why do you cling to this strawman?

His personal issues did not require any alternation or changes in training.

Obviously.

All other WSL students either teach something modified or were declared Sifu's by WSL and his organization when they should not have been.

No one to my knowledge has said this. In fact, I know you've been told otherwise, repeatedly.

Why do you cling to this strawman?

2. WSLVT is the true translation of YMVT/WC. All other Lineages claiming YM descent are incoherent and broken systems.

I don't think one will know exactly where this viewpoint is coming from if lacking experience in WSLVT and at least one of the other systems under comparison.

No point in discussing further if you lack experience or interest to find out. Considering you didn't even know YM kicks in his CK form, I'd say you are very inexperienced, or completely uninterested in what YM actually taught.