Wing Chun Forms Origin

[anerlich]

If Wing Chun, if you can really call it a single system any more, has evolved, it has pretty much remained static from an evolutionary perspective, probably for at least as long as it has been popular in the West.

There ARE systems which are under heavy pressure to keep evolving from an evolutionary perspective. But, as Tony or Geezer said above, this requires a selection imperative. Kyokushin and Olympic Judo have adapted to their respective competition rules. Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is going through fast and continuous evolution for the same reason. Media also plays a huge role. Fads and fashions abound. Some lament that these arts are moving away from the original purpose of self defence. Though in my experience multiple focii are possible.

As previously stated, evolution is about fitness for purpose, not "getting better". The incentive for selection and competition (in the context of evolution, not so much sport) seem to be fairly non existent in Wing Chun. Since practitioners seldom venture outside their own lineage bubbles or expose their arts to a wide variety of stressors, like fighting one another in any context, we arguably reside in a host of Madagascars.

 

[Thunder Foot]

For all my Ip Man lineagers, just curious if anyone has experience with the Chan Wah Sun Ancestral temple in Shunde? Its understood that Ip Man's reductionist ideology (among others) lead to his changes in the forms, but the SLT practiced in Shunde seems to be much larger and is said one of many kuen forms they practice. I saw the clip of Sifu Tam Woon Biu ala Sifu Sergio's youtube channel. Being of the Ip lineage if one were to accept their method as that of Chan Wah Sun's, I lately wonder if we are in any position to talk about form origins given the flagrant changes he made and continued changes of his disciples and down line. For the better or worse, how to know... curious thoughts.

 

[wckf92]

I saw the clip of Sifu Tam Woon Biu ala Sifu Sergio's youtube channel.

can you link the clip? Thx.

 

[KPM]

For all my Ip Man lineagers, just curious if anyone has experience with the Chan Wah Sun Ancestral temple in Shunde? Its understood that Ip Man's reductionist ideology (among others) lead to his changes in the forms, but the SLT practiced in Shunde seems to be much larger and is said one of many kuen forms they practice. I saw the clip of Sifu Tam Woon Biu ala Sifu Sergio's youtube channel. Being of the Ip lineage if one were to accept their method as that of Chan Wah Sun's, I lately wonder if we are in any position to talk about form origins given the flagrant changes he made and continued changes of his disciples and down line. For the better or worse, how to know... curious thoughts.

You have to be careful there. Likely what is being taught is Chan Yiu Min's system and not Chan Wah Shun's. Chan Yiu Min was his son, but it is pretty commonly believed that he added a lot of outside stuff to his father's system. A better representation of CWS's system would likely be Yiu Choi's Wing Chun, as he studied with Ng Chung So....CWS's main student.

 

[Thunder Foot]

can you link the clip? Thx.

His 1st form

The full interview.

 

[Thunder Foot]

You have to be careful there. Likely what is being taught is Chan Yiu Min's system and not Chan Wah Shun's. Chan Yiu Min was his son, but it is pretty commonly believed that he added a lot of outside stuff to his father's system. A better representation of CWS's system would likely be Yiu Choi's Wing Chun, as he studied with Ng Chung So....CWS's main student.

He does give explanation for the differences in the above interview. What is your take on his explanation in that interview? And where might we verify the common belief behind Chan Yiu Min?

 

[KPM]

He does give explanation for the differences in the above interview. What is your take on his explanation in that interview? And where might we verify the common belief behind Chan Yiu Min?

I'm not buying it. He says his theory must be right because all of his uncles do their Wing Chun the same way. But if they were all students of Chan Yiu Min or his son, then Chan Yiu Min could still be the one that added lots of things in and passed it on that way. We all know it is a venerable Chinese tradition to explain any changes as coming from your ancestor out of respect. And the body mechanics of the second half of that SNT form don't match up with the rest of the system as we know it.

So we have to look at what Wing Chun we have around now. If Chan Wah Shun was teaching Leung Jan's system, then why does what Leung Jan taught in Ku Lo village look nothing like what Chan Yiu Min passed down? Granted, in Ku Lo Leung Jan was teaching a "cliff notes" version of his Wing Chun, but the body structures and mechanics aren't at all the same as the second half of the SNT form shown above.

And take a look at Yuen Kay Shan's Wing Chun. It came through Fok Bo Chuen, not Chan Wah Shun. And yet the curriculum is very similar to all the other Wing Chun people we know of. It doesn't contain all the elaborate stuff that Chan Yiu Min's system contains. It has the 3 empty hand forms, dummy, pole, and knives like everyone else.

Ng Chung So was with Chan Wah Shun as long as anyone. Yet he didn't teach this elaborated system. So again, the only way to explain it is the age-old.....Chan Wah Shun only taught the "real" Wing Chun to one person....his son, and everyone else learned a poor version of the system. How many times have we heard THAT now???!!!

Yiu Choi was Ng Chung So's student. You can see good examples of what he taught on this guy's youtube channel. Again, his system is very similar to Yuen Kay Shan's system. So how would all the same elaborate stuff have gotten eliminated from what Yuen Kay Shan learned if it was Chan Wah Shun that left it out?