Wing Chun Chin Na (grappling)

[Z-Man]

I've seen some Wing Chun Chin Na done before but rarely.
Chin Na being grappling techniques (mostly aikido-like, rarely judo or BJJ-like)
Standing grappling like wrist, elbow and shoulder locks.
From what I've seen, Wing Chun is primarily a striking art.
I've seen a lot of grappling from Wing Chun strikes in Jeet Kune Do, an off shoot of Wing Chun, but Bruce Lee's JKD has many other influences in it.

How much standing grappling is in the Wing Chun system?
Are there choke holds or even ground techniques in Classical Wing Chun?
Wing Chun artists please let me know your thoughts on this above.
You can describe the Wing Chun Chin Na techniques if you like.
Thank you!

 

[Vajramusti]

While JKD spun off from wing chun-there are huge differences. And in wing chun it is not easy to speak for all of wing chun.Having said that- imo-wing chun reshapes the motions, the structures, the footwork andthe motions among other things of those who regularly practice the art.It is more than a striking art.It has motions for joint control, for breaking, for throwing, for defending- from orthodox and unorthodox positions.
Re chin na- chin na is not a style- it is a series of applications- and there is a lot of coordinated two hand work in wing chun that can result in chin na applications when the timing is right. And for sharpening timing,chi sao is an incomparable lab.

Combinations of kau sao motions, jip sao , pau sao motions and others can be slipped in smoothly in chi sao.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Technically speaking there is no such thing as Qinna grappling. However Qinna can be used as a defense against grappling (aka Shuaijiao). Qinna and grappling are by CMA definition 2 different things

 

[geezer]

I've seen a lot of grappling from Wing Chun strikes in Jeet Kune Do, an off shoot of Wing Chun, but Bruce Lee's JKD has many other influences in it.

How much standing grappling is in the Wing Chun system?

In the branch of 'Chun I train, there is some locking, grappling, throwing and groundfighting. Not a lot. Just what is necessary to complete the system. But then Wing Chun has never been known for having a great number of techniques. It is a very lean and efficient system.

The bit of grappling and locking I've seen first comes up as stuff we practice to learn how to counter rather than as stuff we would necessarily want to apply. Later some more techniques are introduced to deal with particular situations. Good stuff, but they are definitely not "core techniques".

 

[Z-Man]

Thanks a lot everyone for your insightful replies so far.

 

[mook jong man]

In our lineage there are a few wrist locks , arm locks but these are reversals or reactions to our own wrists being grabbed.

Whilst they are very efficient and require very little effort to perform , by and large we prefer the quick release variety of counter so that we can carry on with what we do best which is trapping and striking.

On the subject of standing grappling it does happen sometimes in Chi Sau , there are instances where both partners can both be trapped up in very close range in a stalemate position .

Then one person if they can't some how pivot and leverage their way out of it and strike , they may sweep , knee or kick etc.

On the subject of ground fighting there are techniques that we do when we are down and they are standing but these are based on the stamping kicks and hook kick that we do when we are upright.

As far as I know there is no what the layman would commonly call ground fighting techniques as is popular today with both people on the ground.

But having said that , I have found in my own grappling training that being skilled in Chi Sau does provide you with attributes that are extremely helpful on the ground .

Such as being able to strike with short range power , having the sensitivity to fend off grabs when the opponent is trying for the arm bar or redirect his hands when he is going for chokes.

Combining this hand / arm sensitivity with the more body orientated sensitivity developed in ground fighting does produce a fairly competent ground fighter in my opinion.

 

[KamonGuy2]

At Kamon, we do a lot of clinchwork which flows very smoothly from chi sao and wing chun techniques. Ironically, even though our instructor is a black belt in BJJ, we dont use many BJJ techniques to 'get out' of the holds etc

If anyone ever wants to come down to my class, I can throw a few ideas there way about how to employ sensible wing chun to upright clinchwork.

There are a lot of shapes in wing chun that are very similar to grappling arts. Guillotine - have a look at the muen saos in the second part of bil gee. When the muen sao (upside down) comes back to guard hand it simulates the guillotine motion. I am not for one minute suggesting that that is what it is intended for, but you can see how transitions occur

Double muen-guen-sao to your opponent - very similar to double clinches in Muay Thai...

The list goes on. However, my advice is that if you want to study grappling - go to a school that grapples!! Pick up some ideas and test them

 

[Domino]

I have only ever learnt techniques against grappling or take downs.

Big respect to Carlson Gracie, if he was still with us I think we would have an form combining both arts.

 

[KamonGuy2]

I would advise anyone who is interested in grappling/cklinchwork to get down to Kevin Chan's lesson on a Monday at Croydon

This isnt a promotional advert etc, just come dwon and watch and ask for a demo. You would be amazed how easy it is to flow from wing chun techniques into BJJ, greco Roman and Muay Thai techniques

A lot of what we do is wing chun, but you will see similarities

 

[dungeonworks]

I have only ever learnt techniques against grappling or take downs.

Big respect to Carlson Gracie, if he was still with us I think we would have an form combining both arts.

I made a thread on this seminar before as well as the topic of BJJ + Wing Chun.....it almost started a Forum Rebellion.

....and I agree. Just centerline control and Wing Chun punching alone work at on the ground from BJJ positions, especially when you have somebody in your guard and can kind of steer where their center is with your hips and body structure!

 

[Domino]

I think I do remember that, lets not go there
apologies for not just linking to it.