Wing Chun and ge4neral fitness

[geezer]

I ran into an old training partner I hadn't seen in over 15 years. Back in the 80's we used to train together in a different WC organization than the one I belong too now. Anyway, after catching up a bit, I asked him if he ever felt like starting up again. He answered that he had very limited free time these days and would rather spend it at the gym getting fit. He felt that WC by itself did not give you a well rounded fitness program. In fact, he felt that often the training is almost "anti-muscle". Any thoughts?

 

[wushuguy]

I think it depends, if practicing sil lim tao and most of the softer practices of WC won't bulk up muscle but you will tone muscle. If his preference is for the outward appearance, then yeah, gym will help get that look. but for fitness and health, WC and other martial arts in my opinion are better for health. especially Chinese arts, since most have a foundation related to improving health, not just fighting.

large muscles doesn't always mean good health.

there's more to say, but that's just my 0.5 cent.

 

[mook jong man]

In many ways your friend is right , Wing Chun movements done properly are pretty biomechanically efficient and don't require that much effort to perform.

Its not really until you get to the level of doing some vigorous chi sau sparring that some demands are placed on your cardiovascular system and muscles like your shoulders and triceps.

But even this is minimised when you have learnt to relax to a sufficient degree and don't try and use force against force.

Thats why when I teach people , for the last 20 minutes I will get them to do a variety of body weight exercises mixed in with high repetitions of kicking and punching or sometimes we do power training on the kick shield , focus mitts and occasionally a couple of rounds on the thai pads.

This sort of stuff will tax their cardivascular system , strengthen the muscles to a certain extent and at the same time engrain technique.

But if you are looking to get huge , then no Wing Chun will not help you there.
That will only come from lifting up really heavy stuff repeatedly on a regular basis , or the taking of certain anabolic substances.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Not really a Wing Chun guy anymore but I was surprised at the difference in my Sifu’s class from the first time I trained with him where he had us doing a lot of push ups and sit-ups at the beginning of class. this was before he was training with Ip Ching. After he started training with Ip Ching they sere no longer part of class.

I asked him about it and he said he did not think it was worth taking up class time, that training Wing Chun was more important and that if I wanted to, or any of his students wanted to, do that it was fine but that was up to us and to be outside of class.

 

[mook jong man]

Not really a Wing Chun guy anymore but I was surprised at the difference in my Sifu’s class from the first time I trained with him where he had us doing a lot of push ups and sit-ups at the beginning of class. this was before he was training with Ip Ching. After he started training with Ip Ching they sere no longer part of class.

I asked him about it and he said he did not think it was worth taking up class time, that training Wing Chun was more important and that if I wanted to, or any of his students wanted to, do that it was fine but that was up to us and to be outside of class.

Could be a bit like the old weight training will wreck your Wing Chun debate .
I remember my old Sifu saying that he wanted us to cut down on the amount of push ups we were doing because he thought that our chests were getting too big and ruining our Wing Chun.

Your Sifu does have a point in that the time spent doing push ups , sit ups etc would probably be better spent on working on the basics like stance and pivoting and so on.

But I teach privately now and some of my advanced guys will just want to work on Wing Chun techniques the whole lesson and handle their fitness themselves in their own time .

Where as some beginners that I teach want to lose weight as well as learn self defence and they can't seem to motivate themselves to exercise unless I'm there doing it with them and pushing them the whole way.

 

[geezer]

...my advanced guys will just want to work on Wing Chun techniques the whole lesson and handle their fitness themselves in their own time .

Where as some beginners that I teach want to lose weight as well as learn self defence and they can't seem to motivate themselves to exercise unless I'm there doing it with them and pushing them the whole way.

I'm in exactly the same situation. The question is how much time would you devote to fitness in a beginner class and what exercises would you do? Also, would you discourage advanced students who want to do strength training on their own, or let them make up their own minds about that?

BTW our beginner class just moved into a new room at the facility I use, and it's got mirrors on all the walls... doesn't exactly help to reduce the "vanity factor!"

 

[Nabakatsu]

I like mirrors for checking for proper structure of siu nim tao, but I'm not quite sure that makes up for the vanity factor
My sifu spends 20 mns with us before class doing a workout.
his super beginner class is almost nothing but workout, but I suppose he is doing community education, and I'm sure there's a higher demend for fitness/kung fu than just kung fu.

 

[mook jong man]

I'm in exactly the same situation. The question is how much time would you devote to fitness in a beginner class and what exercises would you do? Also, would you discourage advanced students who want to do strength training on their own, or let them make up their own minds about that?

BTW our beginner class just moved into a new room at the facility I use, and it's got mirrors on all the walls... doesn't exactly help to reduce the "vanity factor!"

I usually give them about 20 mins at the end of the class , I start them off with some chain punching in the air for about a minute , then 10 reps on each leg of any kick of your choosing , then straight down for either push ups , burpees with a push up and jump , or body weight squats.

I give them about 10 to 20 reps of these exercises depending on their fitness.
After they finish the chosen body weight exercise get them to stand up and jog on the spot for a couple of seconds to catch their breath and then make them measure out their stance and start chain punching again , and the cycle starts again.

The couple of seconds jog on the spot and the chain punching in the air serve as an active rest period before the next round of kicks and body weight exercises .

Towards the end start making them chain punch whilst in a low horse stance for a bit of extra pain.
Then finish with stomach crunches and a few stretches.

If you have equipment like focus mitts and kick shields you can divide the class up evenly into lines facing each other and do power training.
One side holds the pads and the other side does 10 reps on each arm or leg of a technique chosen by you.

You set the pace by calling out the count , 10 reps for each side of the body , then the pads get handed over and its the other teams turn.
Keep the count at a fast enough pace so that they only have time to reset their stance before executing the next strike or kick.

Intersperse these single strikes and kicks with a minute of chain punching at moderate speed on the kick shield and then on a signal from you they go flat out for 30 seconds trying to drive their partner across the room with their punching power and stance.

When they get a bit more advanced you can also just let them do light hand sparring from the guard , by that I mean facing each other in Wing Guard and they have to step in and use their techniques to penetrate each others defences and strike through (no legs just hands).

Make sure they rotate frequently and get a chance to spar with as many different people as possible.

I do moderate strength training as well so I can't really tell them to not weight train , I just tell them not to go overboard or they might get sore from the last weights session and can't do Chi Sau properly.

Its great you have a place to train at with mirrors , they can be a bit of a distraction , but one thing about them is that they don't lie , they can show up a lot errors that you didn't even realise you were making.

I'm still teaching at parks , high schools and students houses where ever theres a bit of space and shade basically.

But I suppose its not the venue that your teaching at that counts , its the quality of the people you are teaching , and my guys as few as they are train hard and don't mind taking the odd hit either.
You can't ask for much more than that.

 

[dungeonworks]

Good fittness levels are better for more than Martial Arts alone, but I see where you guys are coming from.

How do you guys and gals feel about bodyweight workouts such as what the military does or those P90x workouts or Matt Fury's Combat fittness (or whatever he calls it) and such? From my own military experience, I was very strong while in the military with minimal bulk and baggage. Weight training always made me feel "not optimal". My workouts these days are more cardio based with push ups, crunches, leg lifts...ect. and heavy bag training aside my JKD classes which are workouts much harder than what I do on my own. I am not a Gym Rat by any means and like my Martial Arts training to be a workout too.

 

[geezer]

How do you guys and gals feel about bodyweight workouts... Weight training always made me feel "not optimal"...

At different times I've incorporated pull-ups, push-ups, crunches, leg-lifts, knee-bends, lunges, etc. into my routine. One thing I've noticed is that unless you add a weight belt or something similar, you soon get accustomed to the body-weight load and your reps go up, making it more of an endurance workout. To some degree this can be off-set by putting yourself in increasingly difficult positions, increasing the leverage working against you. On the other hand, maybe this higher rep type workout is really better for what we need?

So back to the guote above... can you explain what you mean by feeling "not optimal" using weights?

 

[dungeonworks]

Less than optimal...I was referring to how I feel over all when I was into weights. My shoulders and knees always had a degree of stiffness and soreness, muscles ALWAYS felt tight and when kickboxing, I could clearly feel the muscle tension interfering with my movement wether it was turning a hip over for a punch or kick or trying to recover my guard in boxing. I dropped the weights and went totally into calisthenics, but my goal wasn't so much vanity as it was utility. I mixed my running into distance one day, sprints the next for 5 days a week with jump rope every day at least 10 but usually 15 minutes doing 40 bpm. Bag work, sparring, karate class, mitt work...ect were all tossed in there and I would finish with a routine of push ups, sit ups, leg lifts...ect. I have a few torture devices such as a wheel with handles and the Perfect Push Up (Which I absolutely LOVE!).

It is more of a personal preference for me personally and I am not saying anything negative about weights, just that I "feel" a better range of motion and connective tissues feel good. I am not saying I never get sore from bodyweight only exercise, just that I feel freer and elastic if that makes sense, and my joints don't feel strained. At my weight, I have a lot of options for resistance too!

 

[dungeonworks]

Hey Geezer, here is a site you may find a Gem or two on...

http://www.angelfire.com/ny5/shenandoah/Grunt/grunt.html

They have some interesting things on here as far as homemade type equipment for working out for fittness and some stuff for Martial Arts oriented fittness. The cool thing is that most of (if not all) the projects on their can be built with basic tools and a trip to the local hardware stor, Home Depot, or Lowes...ect. Good stuff for the budget conscious/di it yourself'er fellers such as I!

 

[turninghorse]

Good fitness levels are better for more than Martial Arts alone

This is very true, and very important. And because Wing Chun is so efficient I don't feel just doing Wing Chun gives enough of a cardiovascular workout. In fact I wish some of my sihings were less adept at Wing Chun and in better shape, just for their overall health. In this day and age, chronic disease due to lifestyle choices is the real enemy.

 

[robertlk808]

Good fittness levels are better for more than Martial Arts alone, but I see where you guys are coming from.

How do you guys and gals feel about bodyweight workouts such as what the military does or those P90x workouts or Matt Fury's Combat fittness (or whatever he calls it) and such? From my own military experience, I was very strong while in the military with minimal bulk and baggage. Weight training always made me feel "not optimal". My workouts these days are more cardio based with push ups, crunches, leg lifts...ect. and heavy bag training aside my JKD classes which are workouts much harder than what I do on my own. I am not a Gym Rat by any means and like my Martial Arts training to be a workout too.

I like the P90X workouts, right now I'm doing the Insanity workout. I know everybody has their preference but I think it call comes down to what motivates you and how fitness fits into your schedule. I have 2 kids and a busy life I'm either working out late at night or early morning and I don't have the time to go to the gym so a DVD based work out works fine for me. I'm also into DIY type of workouts too like home made maces, using things at the park while my kids play and the use of things like kettlebells.

Aloha,
Robert

 

[bully]

I try to do more cardio stuff and light weights if I use any at all.

Lets just say that I am not exactly international slimmer of the year, so could do with being a bit lighter.

I go to a small gym 20 minutes from my house, I usually cycle there. One of the great things with this gym is that it isnt that busy and when it is, the following usually occupy it:

Old people
Injured people recovering
Overweight people

This means that I fit into all categories ;-)

There seems to be far less of a stigma of martial arts type gym training these days. They have a floor standing bag in my gym which I spend time on. Light stuff only as it isnt designed for heavy punches.

I do Tabata on it using punches. 8x30 seconds. 20 seconds of flat out *insert exercise here* 10 seconds rest. The first few times I did it I was close to spewing after.

Then I do 2 minute rounds on it, boxing type stuff. Very tiring.

I close by light chain punching on it, doing reps. For the last 30 seconds I try to work around it freestyle using Wing chun. This is when I get a few funny looks. I have yet to try doing SLT in front of the mirror there, maybe a step too far!!

In the class Sifu gets us to SLT using a lot of tension and then we do grinds followed by chain punches. This gets me into a right sweat. I would like to do more pad work though.

Other than that I swim, usually try to do 2 swims per week, 1 of around 1000m doing intervals and technique the other a 1 mile plod to make sure I can do distance come the summer. I love sea swimming, just switching off and going for a long swim. I hate pool swimming but its a means to an end.

cheers

Bully

 

[zepedawingchun]

I asked him about it and he said he did not think it was worth taking up class time, that training Wing Chun was more important and that if I wanted to, or any of his students wanted to, do that it was fine but that was up to us and to be outside of class.

I feel the same way, I'm there to teach martial arts, not fitness. If you want fitness, go to a gym. However, I'm not saying you won't get some form of fitness in my classes. With doing aggressive trapping, focus gloves or pads, sparring, and intense chi sao work, you will get a certain amount of fitness and stamina. My intention is not fitness, just good self defense and training. You should spend your own time on fitness somewhere else, not my time.

 

[vankuen]

I ran into an old training partner I hadn't seen in over 15 years. Back in the 80's we used to train together in a different WC organization than the one I belong too now. Anyway, after catching up a bit, I asked him if he ever felt like starting up again. He answered that he had very limited free time these days and would rather spend it at the gym getting fit. He felt that WC by itself did not give you a well rounded fitness program. In fact, he felt that often the training is almost "anti-muscle". Any thoughts?

Have him go to an EBMAS class. They incorporate fitness into the WT training and you'll know real quick if you're out of shape.

But in general I can see where your friend is coming from. He wants a more "rounded" workout regiment, so he goes to the gym to build strength (not necessarily hypertrophy where you build muscle size), and works cardio on the treadmill or something.

I personally supplement or integrate more general exercise with my wing chun at home. I do circuits with wing chun techniques and regular circuit exercises like the plyo pushups, jump-tucks, skipping rope/stance training, burpees, etc.

I also do intervals on my treadmill, use a bowflex (with the discs) to help with muscle tone (BTW that thing rocks for upper body--not enough resistance for the legs though).

I can't find anything in wc though that works the rear delts outside of practicing lap sao's! arrrgh.

 

[Vajramusti]

Class is for developing wing chun skills. Of course conditioning is important.
The student and the sifu should do conditioning exercises as well.
The important thing is the details of conditioning can vary dependent on the individual.
Wing chun has lots of conditioning possibilities...bench jumping, rope skipping,
lots of punching skipping, lots and lots of chi sao, lots of footwork, wing chun shadow boxing, pole work, bat jam do work, mok jong work-the menu is large.
Since I teach- I work out additionally on my own.

I walk but don't jog...a dog fight related injury led to some osteoarthritis in one knee cutting out jogging for me but I replaced that activity with walking and other leg exercises. I don't do traditional pushups-they can tighten the triceps IMO. I do some Indian exercises and some yoga.The important thing IMO is adapting and MOVING.And proper nutrition and resting.One size does not fit all.