Why train forms

[JowGaWolf]

I just wanted to share this perspective on how one school views forms.

I got it from The True Kung Fu

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Yep.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I had planned on not logging on today, but I saw this last night and had no time to comment.

He is absolutely right. About 20 years ago I was part of a group of people from different styles (Various Kung Fu styles, Taijiquan, Karate, Kenpo, Aikido, Judo, etc.) who got together on Saturday afternoons and beat the heck out of each other. I learned more about they way the postures of the forms I was doing, at the time, worked than any other time in my training.

On a related note about the throw a punch and hold it and wait for the application. That is a good way to learn initially, but you need speed, or at least some sort of pressure. Dr John Painter has a great way of taking working on applications another step forward, beyond the punch, stop, wait bits. The attacker simply holds out the fist like a punch and walks (a bit faster than a normal walk) right at you and you work on the application, if you do not do it properly you at least get a bit of pressure from getting tagged. After that you then ramp it up to closer and faster speeds.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Also yep.

 

[MI_martialist]

What would everyone say if forms (kata, hyung, etc) were not meant to be trained solo, at least for a very long time? What would everyone say if FORM FOLLOWED FUNCTION? The forms were the outcome of various, multiplistic applications, eventually codified so the advanced practitioner could use imagery and deja vu to re-live applications already done. What would everyone say if FORMS were NOT meant to be done without weapons, and weaponless forms were adopted very recently. What would everyone say if one of the purposes of FORMS was to portal from one to any other at any time when needed to effectively link applications? Why is it that the same movements appear multiple times in forms, multiple times in different forms preceded by and followed by different movements?

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I would say pass me some of whatever you're drinking.

 

[MI_martialist]

Why?

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Why?

Because you're babbling. I tried to read it and I think I agree, but I'm not really sure what you said. Why not just say what you mean instead of asking what if questions?

 

[MI_martialist]

OK, whatever you say...

 

[kuniggety]

Why?

Some of it is simply not true. Maybe in some particular martial art but weapon forms do not predate weaponless forms. Everything about what you wrote may apply to some art but there's hundreds of various arts out there with just as many histories (with some having multiple versions of their history). They all evolved in different ways.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Why is it that the same movements appear multiple times in forms, multiple times in different forms preceded by and followed by different movements?

I'm not sure what the other stuff before this quote was referring to or what it means so I'm going to just respond to this one.
I think that the reason we see the same movements appear multiple times in forms is because that movement worked really well. If you had a punch combo or a defense and counter that worked really well, then you would want to be sure to drill it over and over again.

It makes sense that the really good fighting techniques that can be done easily and done in multiple situations would be highly stressed as important. If a technique is really successful then it would be good to drill it over and over again even in other forms. I think this is why it's done multiple times in the form. The first thing I think of when I see a technique that is repeated often across many forms is that the founder and other teachers must have gotten a lot of mileage out of the technique and it must have served them well in many situations.

I also say this from my own experiences because the one technique that shows up in almost all of our forms, and the technique that one of the GrandMasters, Chan Man Cheung, said not to forget on his dying bed, is the exact from that I could fight an entire fight by just doing that one technique. It's made of 4 parts, but I can do the parts separately or an almost any order. For example, I can use the first part to block, to jam a punch, to redirect a punch, to block and strike the eyes at the same time, or to strike my opponents limbs. I can only assume that this is similar to other martial arts systems where a technique or part of a technique has multiple applications and it's the technique that has the most success against opponents that gets trained very a lot. It's no different than why Muay Thai fighters train the kick the way they do. It's the "money maker" that is the most successful against other opponents. They know how important it is, because if you can't take a kick to the leg, then they'll be sure to give you kicks all day, to point where you'll beg them to punch you.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I don't train forms any more. The reason is simple. What I want to train is not in any form that exist on this planet. Here is an example. In my yesterday class, I taught my guys how to use "hip bounce (胯崩) - use hip to bounce your opponent's upper leg area to uproot him". After they can use that move to take their opponent down, I then taught them how to use it to set up:

- downward pull.
- leg twist.
- leg lift.
- shin bite.
- leg block.
- knee seize.
- knee seize, followed by inner hook.
- single leg.
- double leg.
- foot sweep.
- ...

After you are good in one technique such as "hip bounce", you can use it as a "door open move" and set up many different moves. Now you start to get into 2 moves combo. If you continue to use your 1st move to set up your 2nd moves, use your 2nd move to set up your 3rd move, you will have 3 move combo. The solo move (such as hip bounce) may exist in your forms. But are those 2 moves combo (such as hip bounce, shin bite), 3 moves combo (such as hip bounce, knee seize, inner hook), 4 moves combo (such as hip bounce, downward pull, leg block, outer leg twist), ... exist in any MA form on earth? At least I haven't seen those forms yet.

If you look at MA training from this angle, soon or later, you will have to give up your form training, and spend all your training time in those combos that you have created. That will be what you really want to spend the rest of your life time in it.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I don't train forms any more. The reason is simple. What I want to train is not in any form that exist on this planet. Here is an example. In my yesterday class, I taught my guys how to use "hip bounce (胯崩) - use hip to bounce your opponent's upper leg area to uproot him". After they can use that move to take their opponent down, I then taught them how to use it to set up:

- downward pull.
- leg twist.
- leg lift.
- shin bite.
- leg block.
- knee seize.
- knee seize, followed by inner hook.
- single leg.
- double leg.
- foot sweep.
- ...

After you are good in one technique such as "hip bounce", you can use it as a "door open move" and set up many different moves. Now you start to get into 2 moves combo. If you continue to use your 1st move to set up your 2nd moves, use your 2nd move to set up your 3rd move, you will have 3 move combo. The solo move (such as hip bounce) may exist in your forms. But are those 2 moves combo (such as hip bounce, shin bite), 3 moves combo (such as hip bounce, knee seize, inner hook), 4 moves combo (such as hip bounce, downward pull, leg block, outer leg twist), ... exist in any MA form on earth? At least I haven't seen those forms yet.

If you look at MA training from this angle, soon or later, you will have to give up your form training, and spend all your training time in those combos that you have created. That will be what you really want to spend the rest of your life time in it.

Understood. It was just a perspective on how forms are used. I thought it would be helpful since there were some people who just didn't understand the value of forms. In my system even many of our throws and take downs are rooted in our form. I was going to try to explain it but I thought it would be easier to show it.

The first clip shows me doing the form, followed by clips of me drilling the technique in the form. The last clip show the application of the form. We train the form and drill the technique so that we can do the application correctly. When it comes time to do the application we just focus on doing the motion in the drill and everything else works without us having to throw each other around for 2 hours. We practice the application to help us understand how to deploy the technique and what we need to be aware of when trying to use it.
The take down looks slow because I'm trying to keep him from hitting the floor. This is one of those techniques that we allow the other to perform without resistance for safety reasons. But you can see the form in each set of clips that what is trained in the form is also in the application.

Form to Application Video

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The take down looks slow because I'm trying to keep him from hitting the floor.

I like that kind of half throw training too. For every 10 throws, I want my guys to do 5 full throws and 5 half throws. This way it's easy for their body. Also as long as you can uproot your opponent, to let him to fall on the ground is only the "gravity".

 

[Flying Crane]

I don't train forms any more. The reason is simple. What I want to train is not in any form that exist on this planet. Here is an example. In my yesterday class, I taught my guys how to use "hip bounce (胯崩) - use hip to bounce your opponent's upper leg area to uproot him". After they can use that move to take their opponent down, I then taught them how to use it to set up:

- downward pull.
- leg twist.
- leg lift.
- shin bite.
- leg block.
- knee seize.
- knee seize, followed by inner hook.
- single leg.
- double leg.
- foot sweep.
- ...

After you are good in one technique such as "hip bounce", you can use it as a "door open move" and set up many different moves. Now you start to get into 2 moves combo. If you continue to use your 1st move to set up your 2nd moves, use your 2nd move to set up your 3rd move, you will have 3 move combo. The solo move (such as hip bounce) may exist in your forms. But are those 2 moves combo (such as hip bounce, shin bite), 3 moves combo (such as hip bounce, knee seize, inner hook), 4 moves combo (such as hip bounce, downward pull, leg block, outer leg twist), ... exist in any MA form on earth? At least I haven't seen those forms yet.

If you look at MA training from this angle, soon or later, you will have to give up your form training, and spend all your training time in those combos that you have created. That will be what you really want to spend the rest of your life time in it.

You don't ever have to give up forms training. They are always a useful tool to use.

However, there are also plenty of other things you can work on, outside of forms.

 

[geezer]

I like that kind of half throw training too. For every 10 throws, I want my guys to do 5 full throws and 5 half throws. This way it's easy for their body. Also as long as you can uproot your opponent, to let him to fall on the ground is only the "gravity".

Wouldn't this allow you to do more reps too? I mean you can probably do at least 2 or more "half throws" in the time it takes to do a full throw, get up from the mat and reset. And you can move fast and powerfully without the cumulative abuse on your partner's body that comes from repeated collisions with the ground.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Kata is karate. Karate is kata. I know some reject or disagree with that. They are missing out. But that's for them to figure out.

 

[ShawnP]

Dr John Painter has a great way of taking working on applications another step forward, beyond the punch, stop, wait bits. The attacker simply holds out the fist like a punch and walks (a bit faster than a normal walk) right at you and you work on the application, if you do not do it properly you at least get a bit of pressure from getting tagged. After that you then ramp it up to closer and faster speeds.

im not familiar with Dr. John Painter, but this is exactly how we used to train in our techniques as beginners, the higher in rank and proficiency we got the faster we wold go until it was like someone would be throwing a left right to actually hit you in the face. i really miss working out and training and this just brought back some fine memories, Thank you.

 

[Andrew Green]

Does it matter? Clearly you don't "need" forms to be a good fighter. Not all martial arts have forms.

A lot of the things in forms are stylized, and in some ways that is good, other ways its bad. Posture for example, forms might help improve a persons general posture, the tucked chin, shoulders rolled posture of more "fighting" orientated training methods is not going to help anyones overall posture...

In the end we can't all train using every sort of training method. We got to pick the things we like, and the things that suit our goals. And for most of us our goals aren't 100% one thing, but a mix of different things. Maybe we want to feel confident with self-defence, have fun and stay healthy while getting a bit of a cultural experience as well. That training is going to look very different from someone who's goal is to be a professional fighter, and different still from someone that wants to do stage combat and performance work.

Maybe it's just me, but I don't understand why some people feel the need to justify everything we do as "martial arts" in a fighting sense. Clearly we are not all in this just because we want to fight.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Granted. I don't want to fight at all. I can, but that's a side effect of my training.