Why seminar avoidance

[Miles]

I enjoy attending seminars and encourage my students to do so-whether it is the art we study (Taekwondo) or another art.

I think by getting exposed to other arts, we learn more about our own art and ourselves. It also gets folks out of their individual comfort zones to train with a new instructor at something they know little or nothing about. In the past month, I've been to seminars put on by esteemed GM CI Kim in TSD kicking and Guro Dan Inosanto in FMA. These gentlemen welcomed the opportunity to share their knowledge gleaned over many many years of study.

Though I encourage people, I understand that due to finances and familial commitments, it is not possible to attend every seminar which comes along-but, if you can attend a seminar and take one or two points away to work on, I think it is well worth the time and expense.

Miles

 

[mjd]

To many, low quality, high price seminars turn people off, the real deal is 95% of all seminars are only to put money in someones pocket, it's all about the money.

Don't get me wrong a good seminar is a great way to get specialize training and meet the elite, the good one's get a bad rape from the 95% group just out to make money with low quality.

Last Summar I went a main stream headliner seminar for Hapkido, started at 9 PM AM ended at 6 PM, I bet we spent a whole of 3 hours actually working on training, the rest of the time was introductions, program anouncements, books sales, up-coming events,ect, ect, ect.

I am not a elbow rubber, I like to break them and learn how to do it better, faster, less effort on my part.

 

[michaeledward]

Merriam Webster defines seminar as:

1 : a group of advanced students studying under a professor with each doing original research and all exchanging results through reports and discussions
2 a (1) : a course of study pursued by a seminar (2) : an advanced or graduate course often featuring informality and discussion b : a scheduled meeting of a seminar or a room for such meetings
3 : a meeting for giving and discussing information
​

I have added emphasis to some of the text above.

I attend seminars with Mr. Planas as often as I can. He is very clear that his seminars are based on the 'advanced course' for 'advanced students'. Although, I think sometimes that is not clear in the announcements. I attended my first seminar with Mr. Planas as a yellow belt. It was extemely overwhelming. I should not have attended. I did not have the requisite skill set. I think a clear explanation of a seminar curriculum is essential; including prerequisits.

Of course, if you are hosting the seminar, you don't want to announce anything that will decrease attendance.

Money is always a concern. Each of us already puts out our monthly subscription payment. To pony up more cash, sometimes a months dues or more, for a couple of hours can be a hard thing to justify.


Lastly, I attended the 2003 "internationals" in Boston. I only attended the Sunday seminars; which consisted of four sessions of about 75 minutes each, each with a different instructor. From this, my take away was not to take seminars from other instructors or other lineages. At the time, I was a green belt. And each instructor taught something different about the techniques we reviewed. Some of which was so different from what I had been learning, as to demand I totally ignore the basics of my instructor, in order to apply what the seminar instructor was teaching.

I suppose, in a few more years, I will comprehend American Kenpo enough to contrast what other stylists may be showing me. Until then, I study with Mike Hogan, and he studies with Huk Planas. Anything outside that lineage has the potential to take me away from the system I am learning.

 

[stickarts]

Merriam Webster defines seminar as:

1 : a group of advanced students studying under a professor with each doing original research and all exchanging results through reports and discussions​

2 a (1) : a course of study pursued by a seminar (2) : an advanced or graduate course often featuring informality and discussion b : a scheduled meeting of a seminar or a room for such meetings​

3 : a meeting for giving and discussing information​

I have added emphasis to some of the text above.

I attend seminars with Mr. Planas as often as I can. He is very clear that his seminars are based on the 'advanced course' for 'advanced students'. Although, I think sometimes that is not clear in the announcements. I attended my first seminar with Mr. Planas as a yellow belt. It was extemely overwhelming. I should not have attended. I did not have the requisite skill set. I think a clear explanation of a seminar curriculum is essential; including prerequisits.

Of course, if you are hosting the seminar, you don't want to announce anything that will decrease attendance.

Money is always a concern. Each of us already puts out our monthly subscription payment. To pony up more cash, sometimes a months dues or more, for a couple of hours can be a hard thing to justify.


Lastly, I attended the 2003 "internationals" in Boston. I only attended the Sunday seminars; which consisted of four sessions of about 75 minutes each, each with a different instructor. From this, my take away was not to take seminars from other instructors or other lineages. At the time, I was a green belt. And each instructor taught something different about the techniques we reviewed. Some of which was so different from what I had been learning, as to demand I totally ignore the basics of my instructor, in order to apply what the seminar instructor was teaching.

I suppose, in a few more years, I will comprehend American Kenpo enough to contrast what other stylists may be showing me. Until then, I study with Mike Hogan, and he studies with Huk Planas. Anything outside that lineage has the potential to take me away from the system I am learning.

Thanks for the great feedback!
Just judging from the Huk seminars I have been to around here, a beginner would definately have a hard time keeping up. You make some great points.
Altough money is a concern, I always try and make the curriculum clear because if someone shows up and isn't happy, they won't come back and they will tell at least 7 other people about their bad experience!
Sounds like you have great teachers.
Maybe I will see you at one of the seminars!
Thanks again.
Thanks

 

[jks9199]

I am not a big fan of seminars. Like Xue mentioned, if the seminar is in an art I already train, then I feel I get what I need from my instructor. The only thing a seminar gives, in that case, is the chance to view a different person's approach to the same art. After you've seen that a number of times, it get's harder to be impressed by it. Since my instructors are top notch, I don't feel I get much out of this kind of seminar.

If the seminar is in an art I don't train, then chances are good what is taught will not be well learned in the short time together. Without an extended chance to keep working with the instructor to better develop the lessons, it just gets dropped by the wayside, or at best, practiced poorly without followup instruction.

I have a similar view, as well.

I rarely attend any sort of clinic or seminar from a different style. I'm happy to play with others, or share between myself and other martial artists -- but to invest even a few hours of my time in something that won't advance my training in what my teacher has taught me just doesn't seem wise. I'd probably attend a clinic or seminar in a style that I'm interested in, just to get a little "hands on" info about it -- but otherwise, I stay within my own training, or one for law enforcement.

Within my system, we make pretty extensive use of clinics and seminars to share different forms or sub-systems. I'll attend those to acquire that knowledge, add it to my "collection" and teach it to my students in turn. Some clinics are aimed at newer students, others are aimed at more advanced, or even only upper level black belts. Which lets me segue into something I think is a key to hosting a successful clinic...

People have to know who the appropriate target audience is. If you send a student that barely knows the first couple of punches to a clinic which is intended to impart an entire weapons system to the students, in a way that they can subsequently train and develop skill in that particular system -- all they're going to be is frustrated and a hinderance. Or -- if you send a black belt to clinic that focuses on teaching new students the first punch and kick in the system... Yeah -- gonna be bored!

 

[IcemanSK]

Thanks!
This is great input and gives me some ideas to better communicate our seminars to everyone.
I have found seminars to be very beneficial to me but I agree that you always run the potential of attending a bad seminar if you don't know much about who you are going to see.
I have attended 150+ seminars in my career and only a few were very poor, but I usually already knew the one conducting it, hosting it, or I got referred to it from a respected source.
Thanks again! Anyone else been turned off to seminars or have never gone? Why or why not?

I've gone to 2 major seminars in my time in MA: Bill Wallace & Kathy Long. I was excited to go see Bill & had a great time. It was well worth the $$. I went to Kathy's seminar (I was only person not from the host school) & also learned a great deal. It was also worth the $$.

A few years later, a buddy of mine & I ran into a "legend" in MA at a kickboxing event. He was doing a seminar somewhere the next day. To be fair, the place was going to do it backed out & at this event, he got another school to host him on short notice. However, he hit my buddy & I with such a hard sell you'da thought he was a used car salesman late with his allimony payment. I couldn't get away from this guy fast enough. I didn't care who he was, he came off like God's gift to MA & us. (I talk with God all the time: & this legend NEVER has come up). That made me think twice about seminars for a long time.

If it's a hard sell, I'm wary. Also, current money & time situations often are huge factors in my ability to attend. I would say what would help is giving students (participants) as much notice as possible to clear schedules & put aside money.

my 2 cents.:asian:

 

[stickarts]

I've gone to 2 major seminars in my time in MA: Bill Wallace & Kathy Long. I was excited to go see Bill & had a great time. It was well worth the $$. I went to Kathy's seminar (I was only person not from the host school) & also learned a great deal. It was also worth the $$.

A few years later, a buddy of mine & I ran into a "legend" in MA at a kickboxing event. He was doing a seminar somewhere the next day. To be fair, the place was going to do it backed out & at this event, he got another school to host him on short notice. However, he hit my buddy & I with such a hard sell you'da thought he was a used car salesman late with his allimony payment. I couldn't get away from this guy fast enough. I didn't care who he was, he came off like God's gift to MA & us. (I talk with God all the time: & this legend NEVER has come up). That made me think twice about seminars for a long time.

If it's a hard sell, I'm wary. Also, current money & time situations often are huge factors in my ability to attend. I would say what would help is giving students (participants) as much notice as possible to clear schedules & put aside money.

my 2 cents.:asian:

Thanks for the input!
I attempted to promote a Kathy Long seminar once. After agreeing to do the seminar She never bothered to show up or refund the money I sent her for the airfare. Needless to say lots of students were let down by her.
But thats another story!
Superfoot is / was a lot of fun.

 

[IcemanSK]

Thanks for the input!
I attempted to promote a Kathy Long seminar once. After agreeing to do the seminar She never bothered to show up or refund the money I sent her for the airfare. Needless to say lots of students were let down by her.
But thats another story!
Superfoot is / was a lot of fun.

So, you have your own story of flaky seminar holders. I guess that could be a thread entitled "why are more good seminars being held in my area." I'm sorry that happened to you. That kinda junk doesn't help your rep, either. Yuck:barf:

 

[MJS]

While I see a great deal of students attending seminars, there also have been a large number I notice that never attend or even seem interested!
As a seminar promoter as well as school owner, I like understanding what I can do to motivate people to participate and learn.

If you are a student that doesn't like seminars: why not? The extra cost? Do you feel its not beneficial? why not? Do you feel nervous about attending?

IMHO, I think seminars are fantastic! Its a chance to get out and learn from others as well as work with people outside of your school. I remember my first Arnis camp in Chicago!! It was a blast!! The energy in the room was amazing and it was obvious that everyone was there to learn. I didn't see any egos. Even working with folks that are a lower rank, you still learn something from them, even so much as a different variation, etc. Even if you don't remember everything, I always walk away with something. The cost could be something that makes people think twice. Do they have to travel? If so, how far and is food, a place to stay, etc. needed? People may look at the training time vs. the cost. There is a seminar coming up in July thats $135 prepaid, but over the 2 days, you will be getting 14 hrs of training, and chances are, it'll go longer than that.

How do you motivate as many students in your own school as possible to attend seminars that you know will be beneficial to them?
We do ok with seminar attendance from within the school, but I want to do better!
I already have a number of approaches that I take but maybe there is more that i can do.

Talk about it as much as you can. Its not often that people get to train with the top people in an art, so when they're in the area, and most importantly, while they're still with us, it would be good to experience a day with them. Send out flyers to other schools, use resources, such as the seminar page in this forum to post events, etc. Putting an ad in a magazine is also an option.

Thoughts? What are the reasons students will choose not to attend or even consider it and how do you overcome it?

Reality is, we can't force someone to go. Then again, attending 2 seminars as a pre-requisite to BB is an option. Some people may be happy with the training that they get and thats fine, but they are missing out on the chance to train with top people. I, unfortunately never got the chance to train with GM Ed Parker, but taking advantage of his Senior students, when they're in the area, is an option.

Great thread!!:ultracool

Mike

 

[stickarts]

So, you have your own story of flaky seminar holders. I guess that could be a thread entitled "why are more good seminars being held in my area." I'm sorry that happened to you. That kinda junk doesn't help your rep, either. Yuck:barf:

That was my one time I got burned. I have been fortunate overall.
I have promoted seminars for GM Remy A. Presas, GM Wally Jay, George Dillman, Joe Lewis, Prof. Lee Wedlake, Dan Anderson, Dr. Remy Presas jr., and many other great instructors and I conduct seminars myself. They all lived up to their promises.
Its been a great learning experience getting to know these people not just about martial arts but learning about them as people.
When you attend a great seminar don't forget the thank the promoter!
They go to a lot of trouble and run the risk of it failing.

 

[stickarts]

IMHO, I think seminars are fantastic! Its a chance to get out and learn from others as well as work with people outside of your school. I remember my first Arnis camp in Chicago!! It was a blast!! The energy in the room was amazing and it was obvious that everyone was there to learn. I didn't see any egos. Even working with folks that are a lower rank, you still learn something from them, even so much as a different variation, etc. Even if you don't remember everything, I always walk away with something. The cost could be something that makes people think twice. Do they have to travel? If so, how far and is food, a place to stay, etc. needed? People may look at the training time vs. the cost. There is a seminar coming up in July thats $135 prepaid, but over the 2 days, you will be getting 14 hrs of training, and chances are, it'll go longer than that.




Talk about it as much as you can. Its not often that people get to train with the top people in an art, so when they're in the area, and most importantly, while they're still with us, it would be good to experience a day with them. Send out flyers to other schools, use resources, such as the seminar page in this forum to post events, etc. Putting an ad in a magazine is also an option.



Reality is, we can't force someone to go. Then again, attending 2 seminars as a pre-requisite to BB is an option. Some people may be happy with the training that they get and thats fine, but they are missing out on the chance to train with top people. I, unfortunately never got the chance to train with GM Ed Parker, but taking advantage of his Senior students, when they're in the area, is an option.

Great thread!!:ultracool

Mike

Thank you!

 

[mrhnau]

This will kind of mimic some other responses...

Time: More often than not, they take up a full day or weekend. Hard to acquire that much time. You are normally already studying several nights a week. You need to fit family in there somewhere. And rest!

Money: You are normally already paying for several nights a week. Do I really want to pay 3-4 months tuition for two days of study?

Material: With the seminars I've attended, there was SO much material crammed into the time that I had difficulty absorbing it all. I might retain 1/4 of the techniques involved. Also, would I go to a seminar focused on Bo if I really don't already know anything about the weapon? Or if I don't prefer using it? It seems you can't teach something very advanced in seminars, since you have a diverse group in attendence. Can't you normally pick up that stuff during a regular class over a period of weeks?


The Good: the good part is you get exposure to something your normal instructor may not have expertise in. You also get to meet other people in your organization, seeing what other groups are doing. Perhaps you get access to someone closer to the source (or more recently to the source).

If you are good enough to retain the normally vast amounts of info, I suppose its worthwhile. For someone who is still a relative beginner (like myself), I'm probably going to wait before I go again. Let me work on the basics before you stat flooding me with excess amounts of data.

 

[mrhnau]

If you are good enough to retain the normally vast amounts of info, I suppose its worthwhile. For someone who is still a relative beginner (like myself), I'm probably going to wait before I go again. Let me work on the basics before you stat flooding me with excess amounts of data.

Just a quick thought on this... how about different times of day for different levels? A beginners seminar then an advanced seminar? That would be nice