Why Krav Maga works

[TMA17]

I visited the Israeli Krav Maga school today in Cherry Hill. Great place. David Kahn is one of the instructors there. My Wing Chun Sifu from the Moy Yat lineage recommends Krav for learning self defense attributes. He likes the system.

I thought this guy really makes great points about it:

 

[drop bear]

There are so many falacies in that video.

Ok. The big one.

I get that in a street fight your order of priorities might change. So lets say I have a guy sitting on me in a jujitsu match my aim is to reverse that position and do a submission.

Where lets say in a street fight my aim is to stand up pull out a mobile phone and ring the police.

The fundamental dynamics of fighting dont change with the change in priorities. I still have to be able to exert my will on a person who wants to exert their will on me.

To justify a system you need evidence of being able to do that.

This is why boxing that has a completely different focus to jujitsu are both seen as effective self defence. Because they can provide this evidence.

If you can't provide that then every piece of clever logic you are using doesn't matter.

 

[drop bear]

Training whether it be self defence or sport should look like two people actually trying to win.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1435482373223699

 

[macher]

I visited the Israeli Krav Maga school today in Cherry Hill. Great place. David Kahn is one of the instructors there. My Wing Chun Sifu from the Moy Yat lineage recommends Krav for learning self defense attributes. He likes the system.

I thought this guy really makes great points about it:

I do t think David Kahn is there often though?

To me Krav Maga is very practical for self defense. Another system I see practical is Dirty Boxing.

 

[Tez3]

To me Krav Maga is very practical for self defense. Another system I see practical is Dirty Boxing.

Just about all systems are good for self defence BUT it depends who is teaching, how it's taught and how you practice. The same goes for KM, if it's not taught properly and the practice is sloppy then it's not going to be any good.
You can have KM 'McDojos' just the same as any other style, where the instructor has done a weekend course and thinks he can now teach the world.

The best advice is always caveat emptor.

 

[macher]

Just about all systems are good for self defence BUT it depends who is teaching, how it's taught and how you practice. The same goes for KM, if it's not taught properly and the practice is sloppy then it's not going to be any good.
You can have KM 'McDojos' just the same as any other style, where the instructor has done a weekend course and thinks he can now teach the world.

The best advice is always caveat emptor.

While I agree but if KM is taught right IMO it’s one of the most practical means of self defense compared to traditional MA because you start applying what you’re learning right away. I never got this from traditional MA except years ago when I trained with a guy who blended western boxing with Bagua AKA Bagua Boxing. Not saying that with TMA you can’t but most of the time it takes a lot longer than the likes of KM.

 

[Tez3]

While I agree but if KM is taught right IMO it’s one of the most practical means of self defense compared to traditional MA because you start applying what you’re learning right away. I never got this from traditional MA except years ago when I trained with a guy who blended western boxing with Bagua AKA Bagua Boxing. Not saying that with TMA you can’t but most of the time it takes a lot longer than the likes of KM.

The longer length of time means that you learn it so you can use it instinctively when needed. Self defence only works when you can do it without thinking, standing there when it's looks like you are about to be attacked wondering what you instructor said you should do is just not going to work. Longer is often better.

 

[TMA17]

They spar at this Mrav school once a week.

 

[TMA17]

I do t think David Kahn is there often though?

To me Krav Maga is very practical for self defense. Another system I see practical is Dirty Boxing.

It’s very practical and essentially is mixed martial arts. Israeli Krav such as this school borrows from various arts. You’ll never be extremely good at one thing, but it covers a good overall area.

Krav removes the sport element and just focuses on developing self defense attributes rapidly.

Also, the vast majority of people you would potentially encounter will not be good fighters.

In MMA, you’re training for a specific fight with a specific opponent in a controlled environment in a weight class. Don’t get me wrong, MMA is incredible for sport and learning how to fight.

 

[macher]

The longer length of time means that you learn it so you can use it instinctively when needed. Self defence only works when you can do it without thinking, standing there when it's looks like you are about to be attacked wondering what you instructor said you should do is just not going to work. Longer is often better.

That’s why sparring is important. And I mean sparring against different arts not the art you’re training in. We used to spar against boxers.

 

[TMA17]

“Of course a proficient MMA fighter will beat the crap out of someone who only trains KM. I would certainly hope so. In MMA you are training to overcome other highly trained individuals. In KM you are training to defend yourself against untrained attackers. Military KM originated as a system to quickly train soldiers with simple, gross motor fighting skills where aggression can cover up technical deficiencies under stress and combat conditions. Similarly, civilian KM aims to give regular people simple, principle-based fighting skills to defend themselves against untrained attackers, where aggression and relentlessness can cover up technical gaps under stressful conditions.

Systems oriented towards competition between highly trained practitioners =/= systems oriented towards training novices to defend themselves against untrained attackers. One is not better or worse than the other. Each has certain advantages and certain drawbacks. 99% of the arguments claiming 1 side is better than the other are simply dick waving and ego insecurities.

What I find irritating is the false dichotomy between "bro MMA is better" and "bro RBSD/KM is better w/o ur sport techniquez". KM is a system of principles and a mindset, above all else. The core of the system (striking, grappling, ground) is simply MMA and other martial arts tweaked for self defense. In a military metaphor, KM at its essence is a strategy that guides how you fight. The strikes, techniques, etc that you use are the tactics - what you fight with. One practitioner may have a boxing centric style, one may have a MT inspired style, another may have a throwing/grappling inspired style. As long as they're adhering to the core principles of KM - the strategic essence - none of them are any less "genuine" KM practitioners than the other. There is nothing unique to KM and never has been, from day 1. Imi Lichtenfeld was a boxer and wrestler, and his earliest black belts began incorporating judo and jujitsu to their styles as well. From there, it has developed and adapted with the times. Any good KM practitioner is always looking to MMA and other martial arts, whether "sport" or "traditional", for inspiration to improve their game.

As far as the compliance, sparring etc that is a quality of an individual school/instructor vs KM itself. Any good school will utilize resistance, standup and ground sparring, and emphasize the situational validity of any technique rather than claiming x technique is a universal guarantee of success.”

 

[TMA17]

You can make any system work if trained the right way against resisting opponents. Compared to traditional martial arts though, I feel Krav gives you more of a blend of techniques being it is a hybrid system.

Think of how many guys are to this day trying to get Wing Chun to work only using Wing Chun attributes. Then look at Krav which uses far more movements from different disciplines and it opens up a lot more potential.

What are the chances you are going to face a 5th degree black belt in BJJ on the street? Also do you really want to go to the ground? Sure in a ring no problem.

Everyone is selling a system or program. There seems to be a new one every day. MMA is proven and works. There is no doubt about that but Krav is MMA. It’s MMA for the street IMO.

 

[jobo]

You can make any system work if trained the right way against resisting opponents. Compared to traditional martial arts though, I feel Krav gives you more of a blend of techniques being it is a hybrid system.

Think of how many guys are to this day trying to get Wing Chun to work only using Wing Chun attributes. Then look at Krav which uses far more movements from different disciplines and it opens up a lot more potential.

What are the chances you are going to face a 5th degree black belt in BJJ on the street? Also do you really want to go to the ground? Sure in a ring no problem.

Everyone is selling a system or program. There seems to be a new one every day. MMA is proven and works. There is no doubt about that but Krav is MMA. It’s MMA for the street IMO.

There's so much wrong with this.

All ma are only as Useful as the attributes you have, Training will increase those attributes, timing fitness speed strength, your going to be much more able to defend yourself just on those counts alone.

Any well instructed ma should have you much better at self defense by the time you leave white belt, let's say 6 to 12 months. I can see absolutely no reason why someone who spend a 6 months do km, will be any better prepared than some one doing say karate, gross motor skills take that sort of time to develop.

You can if course spend 12months doing either and not be in any position to defend yourself against a strong fast and determine attacker, oh can spend your whole life trying to learn, but if you lack the physical attributes of the attacker you will probably l ose.

This is less true of mma, which has a filter, in that you get beaten to a pulp if your no good, so people give it up quickly if they are lacking, or just do the training, in which case they are no better or worse than if they did any other art.

A lot of street people are good at fighting, they get this skill because they fight a lot, they may also be very fit and strong, they will make mince meat of you unless you can match them in this.

 

[TMA17]

LOL ok. To each their own.

As I said, look how many people are trying to make traditional systems like Wing Chun work. And I think that’s a great thing to do. But with some of these traditional systems like Chun, you’re starting off with a particular system that is inherently limited where as Krav is giving you striking, ground, weapons and street defense. So to me you’re starting with a hybrid system that initially starts you off with more options.

 

[jobo]

LOL ok. To each their own.

As I said, look how many people are trying to make traditional systems like Wing Chun work. And I think that’s a great thing to do. But with some of these traditional systems like Chun, you’re starting off with a particular system that is inherently limited where as Krav is giving you striking, ground, weapons and street defense. So to me you’re starting with a hybrid system that initially starts you off with more options.

Wing chUn is a special case, you can't use it to smear all arts as inherently flawed

 

[jobo]

I visited the Israeli Krav Maga school today in Cherry Hill. Great place. David Kahn is one of the instructors there. My Wing Chun Sifu from the Moy Yat lineage recommends Krav for learning self defense attributes. He likes the system.

I thought this guy really makes great points about it:

With out watching, I've never seen an attack launched from that position, kneeling on the ground, why would you kneEl there? but that said if you were to find yourself with your attacker kneeling between your legs, Wrapping your legs round him and covering your face is a waist of time, as he will be punching you in the groin

 

[Gerry Seymour]

While I agree but if KM is taught right IMO it’s one of the most practical means of self defense compared to traditional MA because you start applying what you’re learning right away. I never got this from traditional MA except years ago when I trained with a guy who blended western boxing with Bagua AKA Bagua Boxing. Not saying that with TMA you can’t but most of the time it takes a lot longer than the likes of KM.

I think you've read too much KM marketing material. Most TMA do get to application pretty quickly. The main difference, in what I've seen, is that TMA are designed to hold interest for a long period of time (to keep people practicing and improving). To that end, they tend to include material for long-term study, as well as the essential basics. From what I'm seeing in KM videos, KM is heading that way, too, and it's neither unpredictable nor really a bad thing. If you develop a system people can become competent in within a few weeks, people stop training sooner and don't reach the levels of long-term retention they could.

 

[wab25]

Also, the vast majority of people you would potentially encounter will not be good fighters.

I am not a fan of this argument. If the guy attacking you is really that bad, then a few jumping jacks, sit ups and push ups should be good.

The guy on the street attacking you, has probably done this before. He is attacking you in a way that has worked for him in the past. It is very likely it will work again. Sure, he is completely "untrained." But, what he is doing, he learned to do in the "street." He learned how to do this by doing it to people that did not want it done to them. He has probably done this to other guys trying to do their thing to him. He might not have gone to a dojo... But every time he tried it, it was on the "street," for real, with real consequences.

I think we are the ones with the fantasies. We go into a dojo or gym, we have some instruction and we try a few times. We work with people who want us to succeed, who don't really want to hurt us and we all expect to go home safe and sound. The fantasy part is where we think that makes us ready for the "untrained" guy on the street. That guy only knows 2 moves. But see those 2 moves he knows, puts people down for real, on the streets.

We need to train harder. We need to test ourselves better. But we also need to know better who we are. I am a guy that works in an office, and trains a few hours a week, with people that don't really want to hurt me. (even if I am sparring, rolling, doing situational drills, multiple attacker, weapon work... they still want me to go home alright) KM wants you to be safe at the end of class as well.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

With out watching, I've never seen an attack launched from that position, kneeling on the ground, why would you kneEl there? but that said if you were to find yourself with your attacker kneeling between your legs, Wrapping your legs round him and covering your face is a waist of time, as he will be punching you in the groin

Firstly, that wouldn't be a starting point for any attack - that's a position you might find yourself in later. And the video at that point is actually talking about BJJ. Oh, and the groin isn't all that exposed there, in actual practice.

 

[TMA17]

Good points. MMA is fantastic. I don’t think there is a better way to learn how to fight. Traditional arts are good too. It really is how you train.

Not all Krav is the same. You ideally want instructors that have trained in Israel. This school encorporates BJJ into their curriculum.


I really haven’t bought into KM marketing. I do know though that this school is top notch.
http://www.israelikrav.com/