Why is this public school being closed (maybe)?

[Makalakumu]

See here is part of the rub for me on this whole thing.
If you can go get more then go get more, there are tradeoffs, you will not have three months off in the private sector, you will not have the quality health and retirement benefits that teachers have now, and you will have alot more stress to perform to keep your job. If you want more money then you have two options, either go get it in the private sector, or figure a way to get in teaching... I will absolutely not pay any more taxes, nor will the majority of Americans for the failure that our education institution has become. To be quite honest, I absolutely believe that K-12 are teaching jobs that do not require a ton of experience to do professionally, and competantly. It sems to me to pretty much be an entry level position out of college, is there really some exremely high level of skill needed to teach K-12? There simply is not a higher evolving skill level needed to justify huge increases in salary and benefits that I can see. I am all for scraping the entire system and redoing it completely, our school system is outdated, wasteful, and not teaching the skillsets that are needed in todays rapidly progressing world. Our public school systems are designed for getting a kid ready for life in the 1950s....

I agree with a lot of what you are saying. With canned curriculum and standardized programs, you can basically turn teachers into factory workers or the equivalent of McDonalds employees. It's not good teaching though. Kids don't learn well that way, but that seems to be the direction we are heading.

In general, good teaching is a highly skilled profession that requires advance training and continual education. Especially if you want to include technology into the picture. When you get into secondary school, each subject is taught by a specialist in the subject and in education.

The other thing is that you shouldn't have to pay one cent more for education then we already are spending. Between the federal, state, and local government, we are spending upwards of 20K on each student. We should have WAY more for our money then what we are getting. I completely understand people's frustration and share it. Teacher's could run a school, pay themselves well, and educate children well with a different system.

 

[5-0 Kenpo]

And what about the fact that private school teachers generally make much less money then public school teacher, but churn out a better product.

Now, I understand that our educational system consists of more then teachers, and that they do have little control over the system itself. I am sympathetic to the concerns of teacher when it comes to the teaching system.

That being said, I am beginning to find that most public school teachers are becoming whiners when the drop out rates are through the roof and half the kids can't even read.

 

[Carol]

True, although private school teachers have some resources public schools don't have (ie: more academic freedom), they also have a better crop of students to work with. That is not something to be discounted.

For a parent to be able to afford private school tuition, chances are the family has some decent stability (from a social perpsective). The parents have an understanding of what it takes to be successful because they have done it themselves. In addition....when you have a parents that are willing to pay thousands of dollars per year, per child, they are going to be extremely involved in that child's education.

My sister lives in a school district (not in New England) that has had a lot of problems, and is in a county that is among the worst in her state for social issues. My older niece and nephew were homeschooled through grade 8, and went to the town's public high school through grades 9-12. The complaints they had about the high school was the overall lack of effort from their fellow students, leading to disruption, the pace of the classes slowing down, etc.

My younger niece and nephews (my sis adopted a sibling unit of 4) are currently in a charter school a half hour away. The charter school is not a glamorous place. It is basically a vacant lot with a slew of trailers set up as temporary classrooms. They have a fundraising night once a month to help raise funds for the school, which is tuition-free.

Here, there are students from families that may not be as well off, as educated, or as succesful as the students in private schools. However, the support from the parents is phenomenal. I attended one of their fundraisers. They sell pizza for 3 dollars a slice, and the school is set up like an open house...you can visit all of the classrooms, meet the teachers, see some of the student's work. It was jammed! Kids everywhere, parents everywhere.

I don't think the public school system should be scrapped. At the same time, teachers are dealing with a lot of problems that stem from social fabric issues...and that's before the administrative matters step in.

 

[Makalakumu]

And what about the fact that private school teachers generally make much less money then public school teacher, but churn out a better product.

Now, I understand that our educational system consists of more then teachers, and that they do have little control over the system itself. I am sympathetic to the concerns of teacher when it comes to the teaching system.

That being said, I am beginning to find that most public school teachers are becoming whiners when the drop out rates are through the roof and half the kids can't even read.

Carol brings up some good points about the nature of families who send their kids to private school. Regarding the teacher salary issue, I've got something to add. In no way does the education system set teacher pay according to the market. It's all managed from the top down with private school compensation hitched to what is offered in public institution.

This happens because parents who send their kids to private school pay tuition on top of what they already pay in taxes. If parents were allowed to move their kids and their money to schools of their choosing, we'd see market forces return and good teachers at good schools would be very well compensated.

 

[Makalakumu]

I don't think the public school system should be scrapped. At the same time, teachers are dealing with a lot of problems that stem from social fabric issues...and that's before the administrative matters step in.

I don't think it should be scrapped either. I believe in public education and I have no problem with taxes such a system. I think what we need to do is restructure what we think schools should do and how we think about schools. That will lead to the desired increases in quality.

Schools cannot solve every social problem. One school cannot serve every type of learner. And schools cannot force a student to learn.

 

[5-0 Kenpo]

I think we should throw out public education entirely. All it does is teach our children how to be drones.

My $9,000 a year (and rising) property taxes could be spent on a much higher quality of education in a private school. And I would have choice and some say in what and how my children are being taught.

 

[Carol]

I hear what you're saying about rising property taxes. I don't think the answer is scrapping the public school system entirely. The public schools continue to provide services that non-traditional schools may not be able to provide well. This isn't just for kids that are from troubled homes, it is also for kids who have parents that did everything right, and still have trouble.

When my older niece and nephew were being homeschooled, the public schools provided tutoring assistance and the opportunities to be involved in sports. My niece had some medical issues as a baby which resulted in her having some developmental issues....particuarly as a younger child. My sister, even being a social worker, was not equipped to handle such a thing, so my niece was able to get the extra help she needed at the town school. We nearly had to take similar action for my niece and youngest nephew, who have an IEP for speech. Close to home, a friend of mine from school has a son who is the same age as one of my nephews (young teen), with significant mental health issues. His parents have the means to send him to a private school, but are keeping him in the public schools in their city (it's not Boston, but it is one of the larger cities in Mass.) because they are far better equipped to handle a child with his challenges than the charter or private schools are.

I think the answer is going to be what Maunakumu touches on...and that is revamping the schools so they are more designed to fit the student's needs.

I already see some of this happening where my sister is. The schools in the county, and the neighboring county, are taking on more of a regional approach to education, and this is resulting in more opportunities for the kids. My new nieces and nephews have two options that were not fully available to the older ones.

When my oldest nephew was in high school, he was able to take some AP courses for college credit at the local community college. That concept has grown in to a new high school being built (organizationally speaking) at the college. Incoming freshmen go to school for 5 years instead of 4, but when they finish, they have an Associates Degree, and it is all tuition free. The community college in question has a 2+2 arrangement with a few of the local universities. If the student does well, they are nearly guaranteed admission at the University of (their state), as well as a the State University, and a few other local universities of significance.

Another school in the area is a technical high school that was founded by the Bill and Melinda Gates foundation. Rather than teaching kids metal shop and woodworking, the focus is on technology...learning IP routing, system administration, database management, programming.

I think a better answer may lie along these lines, with schools taking on more of a regional focus (esp. high schools) and developing in to institutions that can better mat a student's performance, needs, and interests. For the younger grades, I don't know what the answer is...but the school I mentioned in the original post, with its small class size and steady stream of student-teachers looks like they are doing something right.

Sorry for the ramble, this is an area that I'm a wee bit passionate about

 

[5-0 Kenpo]

I hear what you're saying about rising property taxes. I don't think the answer is scrapping the public school system entirely. The public schools continue to provide services that non-traditional schools may not be able to provide well. This isn't just for kids that are from troubled homes, it is also for kids who have parents that did everything right, and still have trouble.

I have to respectfully disagree. I would argue that it is not the fact that non-public schools can't do it. In my opinion, private schools could do just a good of a job in such situations as a public school. In fact, private schools tend to be better at most things then public schools, they just don't have the funding. If we got rid of public schools, most people would have the disposable cash to pay for those extra services.

And, as callous as it may seem to say this, it is not the public at large's responsibility to "police" the homes of every child. We might as well just come out and call ourselves the facists that we would be then.

Another school in the area is a technical high school that was founded by the Bill and Melinda Gates foundation. Rather than teaching kids metal shop and woodworking, the focus is on technology...learning IP routing, system administration, database management, programming.

And this is as it should be. But this was a donation by a private individual, not the payment forced by government which we all have to endure.

I think a better answer may lie along these lines, with schools taking on more of a regional focus (esp. high schools) and developing in to institutions that can better mat a student's performance, needs, and interests. For the younger grades, I don't know what the answer is...but the school I mentioned in the original post, with its small class size and steady stream of student-teachers looks like they are doing something right.

The problem is that this is becoming more and more impossible. Everytime I hear the federal and state governments talking about "improving" education, I cringe. There is nothing that the government does efficiently except blow things up and put out fires, and sometimes I question even that. No-Child Left Behind is a perfect example. We are continually taking the power over education out of the hands of parents and educators, and using the issue as a political football to score points.

And it will only get worse.
Sorry for the ramble, this is an area that I'm a wee bit passionate about [/quote]

 

[Makalakumu]

If we got rid of public schools, most people would have the disposable cash to pay for those extra services.

Looking at all of the 2nd world countries that either have no public school system or a crappy one and great private schools, I can tell you that there is going to be a large segment of people who can't afford to go to school or can't afford to go to a good school. Maybe you are okay with that, but I'm not.

I believe that we should try and give all of our children the opportunity to receive the best education we can possibly give them. This is just as important as "blowing things up or putting out fires". Our society must have an educated public or it won't function in the fashion that our Founding Fathers intended.

That said, I think there is a lot of room to let a free market for education flourish in order to better serve a diverse population of learners. If you don't think it's the governments responsibility to provide education, fine, it could be done through various local coops. But even there, you'll be dealing with massive inequities.

 

[5-0 Kenpo]

Looking at all of the 2nd world countries that either have no public school system or a crappy one and great private schools, I can tell you that there is going to be a large segment of people who can't afford to go to school or can't afford to go to a good school. Maybe you are okay with that, but I'm not.

I believe that we should try and give all of our children the opportunity to receive the best education we can possibly give them. This is just as important as "blowing things up or putting out fires". Our society must have an educated public or it won't function in the fashion that our Founding Fathers intended.

That said, I think there is a lot of room to let a free market for education flourish in order to better serve a diverse population of learners. If you don't think it's the governments responsibility to provide education, fine, it could be done through various local coops. But even there, you'll be dealing with massive inequities.

Who are these proverbial "our children"? I have two children, and they are the ones that I am primarily concerned with.

And the more I research the documents written by some of our Founding Fathers, the more I am beginning to believe that the state of affairs that we are in is exactly what they intended. We do not have a public "education" system. We have a public "indoctrination" system. Our children are not being educated to be free-thinking adults. They are being taught exactly what to think about any number of things, none of which is about educating them.

In any case, our public "education" systems are failing these kids. According to a USA Today article, fourteen urban school districts have graduation rates lower then 50%, including Detroit, Baltimore, New York, Milwaukee, Cleveland, Los Angeles, Miami, Dallas, Denver and Houston. In Los Angeles, in fact, the graduation rate is just 44%. In that same school district, the dropout rate is 34%. Baltimore and New York City have graduation rates of less then 39%.

If we could get local control of small, parent directed school districts, then maybe I could get behind it. But as it stands now, what we have is untenable.

 

[5-0 Kenpo]

Ironically, I just received this news article today from a friend of mine. Amazing that you don't hear anything about it on the news:

Charter school in tough neighborhood gets all its seniors into college

Urban Prep Academy senior Keith Greer, along with his classmates, celebrates the news they will receive a free prom in Chicago because 100 percent of the graduating class was accepted into 4-year colleges or universities. (Tribune photo by Heather Charles / March 5, 2010)

The entire senior class at Chicago's only public all-male, all-Black-American high school has been accepted to four-year colleges. At last count, the 107 seniors had earned spots at 72 schools across the nation.

Mayor Richard Daley andChicago Public Schools chief Ron Huberman surprised students at an all-school assembly at Urban Prep Academy for Young Men in Englewood this morning to congratulate them. It's the first graduating class at Urban Prep since it opened its doors in 2006.

Huberman applauded the seniors for making CPS shine.

"All of you in the senior class have shown that what matters is perseverance, what matters is focus, what matters is having a dream and following that dream," Huberman said.

The school enforces a strict uniform of black blazers, khaki pants and red ties -- with one exception. After a student receives the news he was accepted into college, he swaps his red tie for a red and gold one at an assembly.

The last 13 students received their college ties today, to thunderous applause.

Ask Rayvaughn Hines what college he was accepted to and he'll answer with a question.

"Do you want me to name them all?"

For the 18-year-old from Back of the Yards, college was merely a concept--never a goal--growing up. Even within the last three years, he questioned if school, let alone college, was for him. Now, the senior is headed to the prestigious Morehouse College in Atlanta, Ga. next fall.

Hines remembers the moment he put on his red and gold tie.

"I wanted to take my time because I was just so proud of myself," he said. "I wanted everyone to see me put it on."

The achievement might not merit a mayoral visit at one of the city's elite, selective enrollment high schools. But Urban Prep, a charter school that enrolls using a lottery in one of the city's more troubled neighborhoods, faced difficult odds. Only 4 percent of this year's senior class read at grade level as freshmen, according to Tim King, the school's CEO.

"I never had a doubt that we would achieve this goal," King said. "Every single person we hired knew from the day one that this is what we do: We get our kids into college."

College is omnipresent at the school. Before the students begin their freshman year, they take a field trip to Northwestern University. Every student is assigned a college counselor the day he steps foot in the school.

The school offers an extended day--170,000 more minutes over four years compared to its counterparts across the city--and more than double the number of English credits usually needed to graduate.

Even the school's voicemail has a student declaring "I am college bound" before it asks callers to dial an extension.

Normally, it takes senior Jerry Hinds two buses and 45 minutes to get home from school. On Dec. 11, the day University of Illinois at Champaign was to post his admission decisions online at 5 p.m., he asked a friend to drive him home.

He went into his bedroom, told his well-wishing mother this was something he had to do alone, closed the door and logged in.

"Yes! Yes! Yes!" he remembers screaming. His mother, who didn't dare stray far, burst in and began crying.

That night he made more than 30 phone calls, at times shouting "I got in" on his cell phone and home phone at the same time.

"We're breaking barriers," he said. "And that feels great."

Why don't we like charter schools again?

 

[Makalakumu]

Who are these proverbial "our children"? I have two children, and they are the ones that I am primarily concerned with.

You, my friend, are a child of America. My father and my grandfather's sacrifice helped to protect you, feed you, and educate you. As adults it's easy to get myopic about these things and just focus one what we think we can produce with our own two hands. The truth is that all along the way, you were helped and guided by society and your parents and this partnership helped you become a productive citizen.

We can do a better job of this, certainly. We can give people more freedom and more responsibility to choose for themselves. We can let people fail when they make bad decisions. We can make learning available if people wish it so they can learn from their mistakes.

Some people see public education as just another handout, but I see it as the ultimate hand up. Education can only open a door, it can't force you through. Some people think you can use education to make people into something they desire, but they've been proven wrong again and again. It's a big waste of time and huge waste of money and it's one of the reasons our system is failing so miserably.

People don't want to be indoctrinated. They don't want to be forced to learn things. They want choice and freedom and support and we can have it all.

 

[5-0 Kenpo]

You, my friend, are a child of America. My father and my grandfather's sacrifice helped to protect you, feed you, and educate you. As adults it's easy to get myopic about these things and just focus one what we think we can produce with our own two hands. The truth is that all along the way, you were helped and guided by society and your parents and this partnership helped you become a productive citizen.

I was not helped by "society". I was helped by individuals. You can argue that people a thousand miles away had an impact on my life. Fair enough. But then again, so do / did the Chinese, Japanese, Germans. Heck, my mother's side of the family is from England, so they helped me too, going back generations.

What's the point.

We can do a better job of this, certainly. We can give people more freedom and more responsibility to choose for themselves. We can let people fail when they make bad decisions. We can make learning available if people wish it so they can learn from their mistakes.

But none of this has anything to do with "education". Teaching about spelling, math, science, etc., has nothing to do with giving people more freedom. Hell, in fact, forcing parents to make their children go to schools is the antithesis of giving people freedom. But we have truancy laws.

But, we have to protect kids from their parents now, don't we. We have to tell them how to raise their children. And that's exactly what we are doing with public education.

Some people see public education as just another handout, but I see it as the ultimate hand up. Education can only open a door, it can't force you through. Some people think you can use education to make people into something they desire, but they've been proven wrong again and again. It's a big waste of time and huge waste of money and it's one of the reasons our system is failing so miserably.

It depends on what you desire to make them. Our system of public "education" was designed to make drones, and it is doing an excellent job of it. If our public system actually educated, then MAYBE I might agree with you.

People don't want to be indoctrinated. They don't want to be forced to learn things. They want choice and freedom and support and we can have it all.

They may not want it, but they aren't doing a damn thing to stop it.

 

[Makalakumu]

I was not helped by "society". I was helped by individuals. You can argue that people a thousand miles away had an impact on my life. Fair enough. But then again, so do / did the Chinese, Japanese, Germans. Heck, my mother's side of the family is from England, so they helped me too, going back generations.

What's the point.

I read an academic paper the other day that showed how every child needs at least six influential adults in order to be successful. These are the individuals that most of us point to in our lives when it comes to how we were raised.

What we forget about are the other multitudes who contributed in other ways. In America we tend to remember the soldiers who fought on our behalf, but we forget the policemen, the doctors, the teachers, the scientists, the farmers...and the taxpayers. They all contribute directly to your success and this is who I mean when I say society.

You don't need to go back to your ancestors, but I suppose you could if you want to. The farther you go back, the lesser the contribution.

I fully realize that we have some major problems, but that doesn't change the fact that we have an interlocking grid of people supporting each an every individual in various ways. Even in America, this is the simple truth.

Some societies do this better then others.

But none of this has anything to do with "education". Teaching about spelling, math, science, etc., has nothing to do with giving people more freedom. Hell, in fact, forcing parents to make their children go to schools is the antithesis of giving people freedom. But we have truancy laws.

Yes, I agree. Forcing people to go to school is part of the problem. We need to have choices and compelling reasons to educate ourselves. Then we need to make sure we provide them.

But, we have to protect kids from their parents now, don't we. We have to tell them how to raise their children. And that's exactly what we are doing with public education.

Yes, and it is wrong. It's a waste of money and it doesn't work. We need to let people fail and provide them with the opportunity to choose success. Public education could be a part of this.

It depends on what you desire to make them. Our system of public "education" was designed to make drones, and it is doing an excellent job of it. If our public system actually educated, then MAYBE I might agree with you.

Yes, and I can even show you who planned it that way and how they went about doing it. What we know of as public education is a massive social engineering project that is failing for a variety of reasons. I would rather put the onus of learning on the individual and let them decide what they want to be for themselves. I see myself, as a teacher, providing a service that someone wants, not something that someone needs. That's a major paradigm shift that I'd like to see implemented across society.

They may not want it, but they aren't doing a damn thing to stop it.

I disagree with you here. We have schools with all kinds of active and passive rebellion insipid in everything they do. We have dropouts and kids who hardly learn a thing telling us every moment of every day that what we are doing is not wanted. The system fails because people reject it. Something will rise to take it's place. That's what we really need to pay attention to.

What do we want?

 

[5-0 Kenpo]

I disagree with you here. We have schools with all kinds of active and passive rebellion insipid in everything they do. We have dropouts and kids who hardly learn a thing telling us every moment of every day that what we are doing is not wanted. The system fails because people reject it. Something will rise to take it's place. That's what we really need to pay attention to.

What do we want?

I don't think it's truly rebellion. At least, not the kind that you think it is.

What I am seeing is rebellion against earlier generations. A break from parentage and tradition. But I believe this is exactly what the powers that be want.

In order to control us, they must first cut our ties with those people and institutions that our people have traditionally trusted. That means our parents, teachers, cops, etc. They must create continual crises and a vacuum so that people will begin to look to others for solutions that they deem are out of control. They must make civilization "out of control".

Then they will step in and "fix" it. And that means that they will control the response.

 

[Makalakumu]

I don't think it's truly rebellion. At least, not the kind that you think it is.

What I am seeing is rebellion against earlier generations. A break from parentage and tradition. But I believe this is exactly what the powers that be want.

In order to control us, they must first cut our ties with those people and institutions that our people have traditionally trusted. That means our parents, teachers, cops, etc. They must create continual crises and a vacuum so that people will begin to look to others for solutions that they deem are out of control. They must make civilization "out of control".

Then they will step in and "fix" it. And that means that they will control the response.

I think the people in control may think that, but when you actually talk to kids, well, that's a different story. The rebellion against our school system is alive and real and massive. Even in well to do communities, it is scorned. Even among kids who do well enough or are high achievers it is disliked.

What we need people to do is wake up and realize, like you have, that it was all created on purpose, with all of its warts and other terrible things, in order to achieve certain goals.

John D. Rockefeller wrote the following in order to guide his massive Foundation as it shaped our current school system.

In our dreams, people yield themselves with perfect docility to our molding hands. The present educational conventions [intellectual and character education] fade from our minds, and unhampered by tradition, we work our own good will upon a grateful and responsive folk. We shall not try to make these people or any of their children into philosophers or men of learning or men of science. We have not to raise up from among them authors, educators, poets or men of letters. We shall not search for embryo great artists, painters, musicians, nor lawyers, doctors, preachers, politicians, statesmen, of whom we have ample supply. The task we set before ourselves is very simple...we will organize children...and teach them to do in a perfect way the things their fathers and mothers are doing in an imperfect way.

 

[Carol]

Ironically, I just received this news article today from a friend of mine. Amazing that you don't hear anything about it on the news:



Why don't we like charter schools again?

That's a great story. My sister is in a predominantly black county so that hits home quite hard. I don't think the charter school where my niece and nephew are attending are making many headlines either. Believe me, I'm not against charter schools at all.

 

[Carol]

I have to respectfully disagree. I would argue that it is not the fact that non-public schools can't do it. In my opinion, private schools could do just a good of a job in such situations as a public school. In fact, private schools tend to be better at most things then public schools, they just don't have the funding. If we got rid of public schools, most people would have the disposable cash to pay for those extra services.

OK, that is a fair point.

And, as callous as it may seem to say this, it is not the public at large's responsibility to "police" the homes of every child. We might as well just come out and call ourselves the facists that we would be then.

I hope I didn't come across as stating that we need to police the homes. I didn't mean that...what I did mean is that there are many kids that come from troubled homes, and yet it still becomes incumbent upon the schools to educate them. I'm not sure if it is effective, or even fair, for a child that is intelligent and really wants to learn to be in the same (say) science class as a child that is preoccupied with his own issues and more intent on distracting the class. However, a more decentralized approach may spawn an environment that is more effective at teaching that kind of environment.

And this is as it should be. But this was a donation by a private individual, not the payment forced by government which we all have to endure.

Certainly so...I'm just putting this forward as an example of a specialization that is in place right at this moment.

The problem is that this is becoming more and more impossible. Everytime I hear the federal and state governments talking about "improving" education, I cringe. There is nothing that the government does efficiently except blow things up and put out fires, and sometimes I question even that. No-Child Left Behind is a perfect example. We are continually taking the power over education out of the hands of parents and educators, and using the issue as a political football to score points.

And it will only get worse.

Which...is why I brought up the topic to begin with. Here you have a school district where the average teacher makes $62K per year, that will not make the concession to go from a $5/visit medical copay to a $15/visit medical copay....which will save the city over a million dollars per year.

As a result, the city is threatening to close one of its better schools that has been more effective at educating some of the city's disadvantaged kids than the other schools in the district. Its a bloody power play.

My concern about getting rid of private schools entirely...I am concerned that this would lead to fewer children being educated due to educational access. I am also concerned that the end result would be fewer dollars for edcuation because the people that do not have school age children would not be providing adding any monies to the system.

Well..I don't have kids and...heck, even though I don't own property, if the city drastically cut property taxes, rents would start falling. That's good for me. Socioeconomically speaking, my neighborhood is average at best. There are a few professionals, like myself, there are also working class families, many of whom do not have a solid command of English and work...a lot...to support their families. It is not uncommon at all to see a parent that supports their family by going without a car, or sharing one car between a few relatives, and working two jobs. Its also not uncommon to see the kids with a better command of English than the parents. I know these kids are in public schools, I see them get off the bus sometimes as I leave for work. I haven't yet seen a child in the neighborhood that seems to have a noticeable behaviour issues, so I'm going to guess the kids overall are not horrible students.

If my apartment were a condo, I'd probably be paying about $3000/year in property tax, maybe a bit more. Now, lets say $2000 of that goes towards education. Well, my downstairs neighbor has the same size apartment I do, but he has two school-age boys. And he does not have a car. So is giving him a check for $2000 truly enough to cover an education and the costs of getting to school?

Is the education he gets going to be decent enough if they don't have folks like me (childless) or my neighbor sam (older chap with grown children) getting a tax rebate instead of those dollars going towards an education?

Believe me, I'm all for smaller government, lower taxes, and power jockeying within the schools, but I think it would be very bad for my city, or even my safety and way of life, if a reasonable education system became even more accessible than it is.

 

[5-0 Kenpo]

OK, that is a fair point.



I hope I didn't come across as stating that we need to police the homes. I didn't mean that...what I did mean is that there are many kids that come from troubled homes, and yet it still becomes incumbent upon the schools to educate them. I'm not sure if it is effective, or even fair, for a child that is intelligent and really wants to learn to be in the same (say) science class as a child that is preoccupied with his own issues and more intent on distracting the class. However, a more decentralized approach may spawn an environment that is more effective at teaching that kind of environment.



Certainly so...I'm just putting this forward as an example of a specialization that is in place right at this moment.



Which...is why I brought up the topic to begin with. Here you have a school district where the average teacher makes $62K per year, that will not make the concession to go from a $5/visit medical copay to a $15/visit medical copay....which will save the city over a million dollars per year.

As a result, the city is threatening to close one of its better schools that has been more effective at educating some of the city's disadvantaged kids than the other schools in the district. Its a bloody power play.

My concern about getting rid of private schools entirely...I am concerned that this would lead to fewer children being educated due to educational access. I am also concerned that the end result would be fewer dollars for edcuation because the people that do not have school age children would not be providing adding any monies to the system.

Well..I don't have kids and...heck, even though I don't own property, if the city drastically cut property taxes, rents would start falling. That's good for me. Socioeconomically speaking, my neighborhood is average at best. There are a few professionals, like myself, there are also working class families, many of whom do not have a solid command of English and work...a lot...to support their families. It is not uncommon at all to see a parent that supports their family by going without a car, or sharing one car between a few relatives, and working two jobs. Its also not uncommon to see the kids with a better command of English than the parents. I know these kids are in public schools, I see them get off the bus sometimes as I leave for work. I haven't yet seen a child in the neighborhood that seems to have a noticeable behaviour issues, so I'm going to guess the kids overall are not horrible students.

If my apartment were a condo, I'd probably be paying about $3000/year in property tax, maybe a bit more. Now, lets say $2000 of that goes towards education. Well, my downstairs neighbor has the same size apartment I do, but he has two school-age boys. And he does not have a car. So is giving him a check for $2000 truly enough to cover an education and the costs of getting to school?

Is the education he gets going to be decent enough if they don't have folks like me (childless) or my neighbor sam (older chap with grown children) getting a tax rebate instead of those dollars going towards an education?

Believe me, I'm all for smaller government, lower taxes, and power jockeying within the schools, but I think it would be very bad for my city, or even my safety and way of life, if a reasonable education system became even more accessible than it is.

I guess, to bottom line my position on the subject, is a few things:

1: I don't think that it is appropriate to force me to pay money for children other than my own. Even if I were to agree that it is ok, I would still argue that it should go towards those schools in my geographical district, so that I could maybe see some benefit, ie., lower crime, better business opportunities, etc.

2. The very fact that the public school system is used by politicians as a political football, therefore, the desires of the parent take second fiddle to their desires. And it will always be so.

3. The federal intrusion into an area of state soveriegnty by way of threats to education funding if the stated don't comply.

4. The fact that there is, and probably never will be, any accountability within the public school system.