Why don't you keep your back heel up in a front stance?

[Azulx]

In a front stance why are you not supposed to keep your back heel up? My instructor says because it keeps you off balanced, therefore you are not planted to the ground. Are there any other reasons?

 

[Xue Sheng]

JKD keeps the back heel up in a front stance

 

[JowGaWolf]

In a front stance why are you not supposed to keep your back heel up? My instructor says because it keeps you off balanced, therefore you are not planted to the ground. Are there any other reasons?


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This is probably from old kung fu roots. Keeping the heel downs gives a stronger stance that's not easily moved, but that's only part of it. The other part is that having the heel down will allow you to drive power into your punch in the form of a push. Boxers twist power, but this is push power. The function behind it is that you are able to push more of your body mass into the punch and therefore require less effort from the arm to deal damage.

 

[JowGaWolf]

JKD keeps the back heel up in a front stance

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Bruce lee also punched with the heel down.

 

[mber]

This is probably from old kung fu roots...The function behind it is that you are able to push more of your body mass into the punch and therefore require less effort from the arm to deal damage.

Coming from a TSD background I have similar reasoning. TSD in particular is considered a "one hit one kill" art -- one punch is supposed to start and end the battle. Grounding your stance as you strike provides a surplus of power, even if afterwords you can't compensate should you miss.

The reasoning behind this (as it was told to me; I don't have sources other than "tradition") is that this method originated during the occupation of Korea (I guess this would be before real TSD, rather in subakdo, TSD's antecendent). In order to carry out assassinations without weapons, they developed this strategy of attacking all-out, taking the risk of failure in hopes of having a complete success.

This, at least, is what I heard. I can't vouch for the history, but I can vouch that it produces a powerful attack.

 

[Headhunter]

To me it makes 0 difference you get all these instructors saying if your heels up your unbalanced and you can fall all over the place or you've got to have a very low stance or you'll be thrown around like a piece of string. Well look at any fight ring or street no one in a very deep low stance no one has the exact correct alignment of their feet with toe heel alignment. To me that's just something instructors say to sound clever with all their theory and ok maybe it makes .5 % of a difference but does anyone really think a fights won or lost depending on whether their heel is raised or not.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Bruce lee also punched with the heel down.

He also punched with it up, but the question was not about punching it was simply

In a front stance why are you not supposed to keep your back heel up?

with the added caveat of

My instructor says because it keeps you off balanced, therefore you are not planted to the ground.

The JKD stance with heel up is not off balance at all

As for reasons, many styles have many reasons for what they do, Xingyi is a back stance with heels down and taiji has both back and front with heels down, jkd doesn't, that is all

 

[marques]

In a front stance why are you not supposed to keep your back heel up?
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And why you think it is supposed to be kept up?
It may be both up or down. I use front heel up to threaten front kick, back heel up for punching... It changes all the time.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Coming from a TSD background I have similar reasoning. TSD in particular is considered a "one hit one kill" art -- one punch is supposed to start and end the battle. Grounding your stance as you strike provides a surplus of power, even if afterwords you can't compensate should you miss.

The reasoning behind this (as it was told to me; I don't have sources other than "tradition") is that this method originated during the occupation of Korea (I guess this would be before real TSD, rather in subakdo, TSD's antecendent). In order to carry out assassinations without weapons, they developed this strategy of attacking all-out, taking the risk of failure in hopes of having a complete success.

This, at least, is what I heard. I can't vouch for the history, but I can vouch that it produces a powerful attack.

I have a Chinese classmate and he mentioned that some of the techniques have to be taken into context the use of weapons if you want to thrust a spear or sword into an object then heel down works best. He thinks that translated into punching technique making a punch similar in root to a spear. Not sure if he's right but if you want to impale someone with a spear or sword then getting body weight behind it would make it easier to do.

 

[JowGaWolf]

He also punched with it up, but the question was not about punching it was simply



with the added caveat of



The JKD stance with heel up is not off balance at all

As for reasons, many styles have many reasons for what they do, Xingyi is a back stance with heels down and taiji has both back and front with heels down, jkd doesn't, that is all

I think a person would be fine with the heel up until some uses a soft technique to pull the punching hand forward. Grappliers pull people forward but I can't remember if it's done when the opponent's heel is up or down

 

[oftheherd1]

What I was told when I studied TKD was that with the heel down, the shoulders squared, and the front knee bent, there was a line of bone up from the ground, up through the hips, across the shoulders, and down the striking arm, to the part of the opponent that was being struck. We were taught that was how the maximum strength was delivered to the opponent, and that our balance was best achieved that way.

Many things seem to be taught different that when I studied.

 

[JowGaWolf]

And why you think it is supposed to be kept up?
It may be both up or down. I use front heel up to threaten front kick, back heel up for punching... It changes all the time.

Yes. Even for Jow Ga the heel up or down will change. Ideally students keep the heel down, but movement from the opponent may require some mobility. I think Bruce Lee made a statement that he could have finished fights faster if he utilized the footwork of boxers.

In the long fist systems the heel down is the only thing that's going to keep a long punch technique from throwing the student off balance.

 

[MI_martialist]

We need to consider what the purpose of a "stance" is. A "stance" or more appropriately, a fighting base is used to maximize stability AND mobility...what about heel up or heel down impacts both of these aspects of a fighting base? How much does one want to give up of each of these components to achieve the short term goal? I will also say that these fighting bases come from weaponry use, and JowGaWolf's classmate is absolutely right...what weapon was used for what purpose and the same "stance" can be altered as a function of the weapon being used.

Umm...as far as the TSD explanation of weaponless assassinations...well...don't you think that the base might have been used before this reason was invented by those who no longer used weapons?

 

[Tez3]

In Wado Ryu we have Gyaku nekoashi, which is reverse cat stance where the back heel is lifted.

 

[Buka]

You say tomato, I say solanum lycopersicum.

It all makes good sauce, and bloody Marys for that matter, if you know what you're doing.

 

[Azulx]

You say tomato, I say solanum lycopersicum.

It all makes good sauce, and bloody Marys for that matter, if you know what you're doing.

You're one clever guy Mr. Buka. Any student you have ever had, is incredibly fortunate.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

In a front stance why are you not supposed to keep your back heel up?

When you attack, to lift up your back heel and change your "front stance" into "monkey stance" will give you extra reach.

If you are not attack, when you lift your back heel up. you may put more weight onto your front foot. This will give your opponent a chance to sweep your leading leg. Also when your opponent sweeps your leading leg, if your back foot is flat, it will be easier for you to shift weight to your back foot and lift your front foot up. If your back foot has heel up, it will take you 2 steps process:

- drop your heel,
- shift weight,

sometime that will be too slow.

It's easy to test this with your training partner. First you stand with back heel down, let your opponent to sweep your leading leg 20 times. You lift your front leg to escape it. You then lift your back heel up, let your opponent to sweep your leading leg 20 times. You lift your front leg to escape it. You can draw your own conclusion there.

In fighting, most people use 30-70 weight distribution stance with 70% weight on the back foot to avoid "foot sweep".

 

[WaterGal]

Nevermind.... between my loading this page and commenting, Kung Fu Wang posted basically the same answer I gave. That's what I get for commenting while working.....

 

[Buka]

You're one clever guy Mr. Buka. Any student you have ever had, is incredibly fortunate.

We're all pretty fortunate that there were dojos available to us, or people willing to train us even without a full time dojo. And just maybe, we're all fortunate that we were stubborn enough to keep going back.

 

[drop bear]

Some do. Some don't

Adrian pang is a pretty heel down fighter.