Why don't Fundamentalist schools...

[heretic888]

Heretic...great post. Any particular books you suggest for reading those details about Tertullian, Augustine, Clement, etc? Or do I have to start with City of God and work through all the other tomes? I'm not being sarcastic here...I'm truly interested. I'm always up for a good read on theology.

I dinnae have my books with me now. So, I'll have to get back to you on that.

 

[heretic888]

Thanks for answering my question to rmcrobertson. I'd guess he wouldn't mind having words put in his mouth. But the only way to know for sure, about my question, would be to ask an ORU student, someone who has actually had the experience. Until then it's an unknown
Yes, you should be. You are generalizing and making assumptions about groups and individuals. As far as your condescending comment about what I may and may not be familiar with, are you familiar with the concept espoused in Matthew 5:29 regarding turning the other cheek?
I am ready, dear. Smack me again.

Peace,
Melissa

Oh, poopies.

1) You should know putting words in others' mouths is one of my favorite pasttimes. Right up there with 'flipping out without thinking twice'. Then again, it could just be that I have the silly notions that public forums can be used by anyone. Poppycock, all that.

2) Yup, your're right. One of the strongholds of anti-evolution and anti-mysticism would lovingly dote on concepts that are directly antithetical to their systems of thought. Silly me.

Now, excuse me while I go talk to my atheist biology professor that teaches 'creation science' and my politically-correct anthropology professor that teaches orthogenesis and unilineal evolution.

Yup, yup, yup.

3) This might be a shock, but Bible quotations impress me about as much as fratboys showing how much brewskies they can down without passing out.

4) Lay the smacketh down, thus sayeth the Rock.

Ta ta.

 

[Cruentus]

....Just wantin' to know why.

Here is why...at least what I think is why the sudden push to have the religious right agenda bullied through the system...

follow the progression, because each part is a puzzle piece of the larger picture:

#1. You have fanatical, immoral, and powerful people out there that operate under the guise of Christianity. These individuals are very bigoted, close-minded, egomaniacal, and illogical. But worse then that... they seem to be pretty hateful too, and especially hateful towards those who I learned that Christians should be trying to help the most. These are individuals like Fawell and Jones. These crazies are a minority sect among christians, and these are the guys that want to enforce christianity through the government. They don't want the government to protect our freedoms; they want a "Christian State" (and their warped version of christianity too boot).

#2. You have conservative think tanks and PR groups that are funded by wealthy entities in this country who have been working on framing things like "the liberals are taking your value's," for years; all to fit the conservative agenda of controlling the wealth of this country. Part of this strategy involves only airing what is sensational and what will sell on TV, radio, etc.. A good portion of what happeneds to "sell" (MTV & basic cable shows, reality shows, etc.) is very hedonistic compared to the values of middle america. This helps further paint the illusion of these "immoral liberals who are trying to steal your values." None of these illusionary creatures called "liberals" created by hollywood and think tanks actually operate in our government system, but none-the-less, the perception is that "they" are taking over.

#3. Because the "immoral liberals" are "taking our values," middle america looks to church for spiritual guidance on what to do about this invasion. This causes many leaders of conservative and moderate churches that generally stay out of politics to get involved and try to find some answers; and remember, many of the fairly logical church authority figures are being inundated with the "liberal myth" like their congregation and laypeople.

With the help of their "conservative friends", the leadership comes up with key issues that are "non-negotiable" because these issues are leading to the moral decline in this country, or so they believe. These are "respect for life" as defined by "abortion, stem cell research, human cloning, and euthanasia," and respect for chastity and family life which covers issues like "gay marriage," which is believed to be a direct threat to this value. These are the basics, but the crazier you go, the crazier the pork-barrel values get; this is how you get into things like sex education, censorship, creationism in science class, etc.

So, now you have a group of people (majority of christian church leaders) who are only voting on at best 5 similar issues. Other issues like a decent wages, foriegn policy, healthcare, programs for the poor, environment, campaign finance reform, and so on are all a distant seconds to these "nonnegotiable" issues that all "values" are argued to stem from. Keep in mind that these issues were created in help by wealthy conservative leaders as well.

When you only vote based on a few core issues, it is easy for canidates and leaders to throwout some rhetoric to get your support, while they rob you blind. This is how republicans have been winning at all in the last few elections.

#4. Christians have been sold piles of manuer since Reagan by the republican party. Yet, Row vs. Wade has not been overturned, and basically very little to address their agendas has been done. Most is RHETORIC that surfaces around election time. Every election since Regean, Republicans put their token God bless America stuff on their platform, but never ACTUALLY DO anything about it when they are in office. So, the Christian voter turnout and republican support had become very laxed up until the 2000 Bush election.

Over the years, because Christian churches and groups haven't been getting their way in government, and because of the ficticious "liberal agenda" infiltrating their TV screens, Christians have been packing together. Conservative, Moderate, some liberal, and some totally crazy and hateful Christians have all been on the same side in recent years. This means that good logical and good Christian people and nutcases like Bob Jones are riding the same warship, and have been for a few years now. And...when a bunch of groups pact together to form one big ship crew, too often the fanatical nutballs are the ones steering that boat.

#5. Because of #4, Carl Rove (probably) can be accredited for figuring out that an additional 80 million or so votes from the Christian right exist out there...and these votes would be needed by the Bush administration to win. So, this administration worked hard over the last 4 years to make sure that Bush was presented as a very Christian fella. They worked hard to paint the picture that this fictitious group of liberals were gonna steal 'merican values. And, they did it through the churches. The church authority, who created the nonnegotiables with their wealthy conservative leaders were very much in the business of getting this word out to the church members around election time. I was attending church (Catholic) at the time of this last election, and even local Catholic church leadership, which is not known for fanaticism, was basically saying that if we don't vote for Bush, then we're sinning and probably shouldn't recieve communion.

All this because of the vast campaign by the Bush administration to steal another election. And, it worked. 80 million or so of the Christian right voted Bush because they were told that they'd better if they believed in Jesus.

Well, with that election also came many promises to Christians (and Christian nutballs) from conservative canidates all over the country.

#6. So, we now have a conservative Republican dominated government; the same party that made many promises to the religious right.

Well...now guess what? Nothing comes for free...and the religious right, who gave the election to the republicans this last time around, are wanting to collect. And, you know what else? There will be NO EXCUSES for abortion to be legal still in 4 years. There are no excuses for the FCC to allow hedonistic TV programs to be aired. There are no excuses for creationism to not be back in the schools, for "under God" to not be put back into the pledge again, for the 10 commandments not to go on every step of every courthouse, for it to be legal to beat up fags again, and so on and so on. No excuses for the religious right agenda to not be met this time around.

So that is "why". That is why there is the recent push to put creationism in schools, to have "biblical norms" to be applied to legislation, and so on. The religious right wants their promises paid in full, and the fanatics are in charge.

conclusion So, that is "why" there is this recent illogic revolving around religion going around. This is why the push to go back to puritianism. The religious right were used to rally the masses to get Bush elected again; and now they want their promises paid in full. And those who are working the hardest to have these promises paid just happened to be the fanatics who want an enforced christian state.

So, one of two things will happened in the future years. One is that our government will fail to protect our rights and give in to the empty promises that conservatives have been feeding the religious right all these years. If so, all hell will break lose, and "america the beautiful" will become the oppressors (again). And all I will have to say to the sorry saps that fell for the conservative values trap is, "I guess that sometimes you get what you pray for," 'cause I gaurantee that most of the people who voted Bush based on "christian values" won't actually like these results if they are ever enforced. Two is that our government will succeed in protecting our rights, and the religious right will not be able to collect on the majority of the conservative empty promises. I believe that this is the most likely scenario. If this happeneds, then I can say to all those sorry saps who fell for the trap is #1. I told you so, and #2. STOP voting on a select few issues when those issues are only being used to control your money.

So, we'll see what happeneds, but so far, I consider this mess to be a loss for real americans who simply want freedom and opportunity for themselves and their kids in this country...

Paul

 

[Cruentus]

Disclaimer on above:

#1. The word "Church" only speaks to christian churches in general, and not favoring any one of the many sects.

#2. When I say "conservatives," I don't intend to point the finger at the many americans with values or political ideology that go under the label. I am talking specifically about religious right and the wealthy 1% who are in bed together.

#3. I had to simplify a few things, or my post would have been even LONGER. As one can see, these answers are not easy to simplify...

Paul

 

[Rich Parsons]

#2. When I say "conservatives," I don't intend to point the finger at the many americans with values or political ideology that go under the label. I am talking specifically about religious right and the wealthy 1% who are in bed together.

I thought it said something somewhere about being in bed with another :idunno:

 

[Cruentus]

I thought it said something somewhere about being in bed with another :idunno:

Yes...(I can see Rich's new pickup line now, "hey...wanna be conservatives?")

 

[Melissa426]

Oh, poopies.

Now, excuse me while I go talk to my atheist biology professor that teaches 'creation science' and my politically-correct anthropology professor that teaches orthogenesis and unilineal evolution.

Well, my college days are several years past. So, instead all I can do is wistfully remember the countless hours spent in the biology dept at my small midwestern Baptist college, but I honestly don't recall a thing said about creation science.
Maybe I was downing too many brewskies, though I wasn't a frat boy. I wasn't terribly restricted in any extra-curricular activities, though maybe I should have been :ultracool. I remember dancing and playing cards! oh, the horror!

I probably learned the whole evolution thing in Ecology class.
But then again, what I remember most from that class was the time I caught a water snake on a field trip. :uhoh:
Aaah, such fond memories.

Now a days my intellectual pursuits are fairly limited, mostly to continuing ed studies (for my job) and twice a week Bible studies at church. Our next focus is the power of prayer in modern day. If you're ever in the neighborhood, you're welcome to join us.

Peace,
Melissa

 

[heretic888]

Well, my college days are several years past. So, instead all I can do is wistfully remember the countless hours spent in the biology dept at my small midwestern Baptist college, but I honestly don't recall a thing said about creation science.

Please remember we're not talking about "Christian" schools here --- just a particular variety, namely the handful that Robert constantly brings up.

Our next focus is the power of prayer in modern day.

Yes, a very interesting subject. Lotsa cross-cultural data on that little ditty.

Laterz.

 

[loki09789]

Note: our current President has given speeches at the institution run by the writer cited belowEd. Note: Rev. Jones sent this greeting to Bush on November 3. It is now posted on his website.

President George W. Bush
The White House
1600 Pennsylvania Avenue NW
Washington, DC 20500

Dear Mr. President:

The media tells us that you have received the largest number of popular votes of any president in America's history. Congratulations!...

The POTUS has given speeches at all kinds of colleges/institutions.... so WHAT! Taking this point out of context is paranoia at it's best.

He got a letter from a man with an agenda ....like THAT hasn't happened a million times. The REAL concern is what did the POTUS do with this letter/information/idea? Chances are not much more/less than he does with other letters...

 

[Tgace]

GASP!! Do you think he has an agenda?

 

[loki09789]

GASP!! Do you think he has an agenda?

Uh oh, you wrote me a letter...now you control my mind! I will now ignore my sworn duty, job description, legal parameters of my job/powers (which Bush has yet to be impeached for if he as gone so far as people are saying....) to be manipulted ONLY by this sector of the community....

I was waiting for Bush to show up in this or the other thread on Fundamental religion.....

 

[heretic888]

Uh oh, you wrote me a letter...now you control my mind! I will now ignore my sworn duty, job description, legal parameters of my job/powers (which Bush has yet to be impeached for if he as gone so far as people are saying....) to be manipulted ONLY by this sector of the community....

*shrugs* He's been doing that for four years running. So, why stop now??

 

[PeachMonkey]

The POTUS has given speeches at all kinds of colleges/institutions.... so WHAT! Taking this point out of context is paranoia at it's best.

So which context should we take it in that the POTUS, a self-proclaimed fundamentalist Christian, gave a speech at a university that bans interracial dating, jazz, and African-American students?

Or does that sort of atrocious record fall under the "so WHAT!" category when we're dealing with white, anglo-saxon Christians?

 

[loki09789]

So which context should we take it in that the POTUS, a self-proclaimed fundamentalist Christian, gave a speech at a university that bans interracial dating, jazz, and African-American students?

Or does that sort of atrocious record fall under the "so WHAT!" category when we're dealing with white, anglo-saxon Christians?

And JFK as a self proclaimed Catholic, living from the wealth that was seeded by a bootlegging origin, was being atrocious if he spoke at a Catholic College?

How about a complete list of colleges/instititutions that the POTUS speaks in during a given year. If the POTUS spoke at a 'Black College' (a college that is geared toward creating a sense of pride and strength in and for the Afro-American community) does that mean he is automatically affiliated with those values and ideas?

 

[PeachMonkey]

And JFK as a self proclaimed Catholic, living from the wealth that was seeded by a bootlegging origin, was being atrocious if he spoke at a Catholic College?

Can you give me a list of Catholic Colleges JFK spoke at that banned interracial dating and didn't admit "darkies"? Thanks.

If the POTUS spoke at a 'Black College' (a college that is geared toward creating a sense of pride and strength in and for the Afro-American community) does that mean he is automatically affiliated with those values and ideas?

Yes. That's the *point*. He speaks at those institutions in order to reach out to those constituencies, and to associate himself with them.

You can't have it both ways... to use these speeches as political tools and then quickly dissassociate yourself from them when the heat comes down.

Well, actually, you *can* have it both ways, particularly when you're a politician, and especially when the right-wing attack machine will cover your every move... but intelligent people shouldn't let you get away with it.

 

[loki09789]

Can you give me a list of Catholic Colleges JFK spoke at that banned interracial dating and didn't admit "darkies"? Thanks.


Yes. That's the *point*. He speaks at those institutions in order to reach out to those constituencies, and to associate himself with them.

You can't have it both ways... to use these speeches as political tools and then quickly dissassociate yourself from them when the heat comes down.

Well, actually, you *can* have it both ways, particularly when you're a politician, and especially when the right-wing attack machine will cover your every move... but intelligent people shouldn't let you get away with it.

What is the speech about? Is it a plea for reform of those practices? Just because he is there doesn't mean that he is 'one of them.' It just means he is there. Remember, those who are religious or at least recognize moral lessons from the Bible/NT know that even Jesus sat with the sinners to break bread - it is WHY he is there that counts, not just that he is there.

By this logic if I give a self defense demonstration at the local Jewish center and now I am 'Jewish?' I am there, physically present in association with these people and would be there because 1. Sharing my expertise/values...., 2. Exposure/recruitment for students...

If I do another demo at a Native American event, am I now "Native American?"....

Does my presence at either of these things automatically mean that I am affiliated with them, share ALL their ideals or their philosophy?

A cop talks to a known drug dealer for info, does that mean that he is also a drug dealer? Does it automatically mean that the cop shares the same values/beliefs as the drug dealer simply because they are there together communicating?

The logic here is a little thin.

 

[PeachMonkey]

By this logic if I give a self defense demonstration at the local Jewish center and now I am 'Jewish?'

No, because:

1) You're not a politician
2) You're not giving a speech to a political constituency, you're giving a self-defense demonstration
3) You haven't advertised yourself as being Jewish

...but continue to throw up straw-men all you like. At some point I'll probably get tired of knocking them down.

 

[kenpo tiger]

By this logic if I give a self defense demonstration at the local Jewish center and now I am 'Jewish?'
Nope. Takes a lot more than that. We're very picky.

I also don't think that's quite the same as the POTUS accepting an invitation to be in a highly visible situation at a highly questionable location vis-a-vis his beliefs. One might very well assume that his sympathies lie with the institution and its policies/beliefs. If Bush felt it would be nonadvantageous to his image/popularity/whatever, he would have declined the invitation. One could also assume that his advisors approved of his appearance.

 

[Flatlander]

We are drifting here, folks. I really don't think that Bush is relevant to the topic.

 

[rmcrobertson]

"Biology is the study of life and, as such, relates to all aspects of human life on earth. Our students are stimulated to acquire a working knowledge of biological systems to be able to address biological challenges that affects their daily lives. One aim in our program is to integrate our Biblical faith with our study of the biological sciences. The faculty strongly espouse that their faith in Christ does not impede their scientific endeavors; rather, it encourages them to elucidate the majesty and glory of God as revealed through the workings of His biological Creation. Thus, we consider a vocation in biology as a God-ordained calling into the study of the wonders of His Creation. Another goal is to train students to use scientific and critical thinking skills to accurately discriminate between scientific facts and pseudoscience."

Biology Home Page, Oral Roberts University

C'est magnifique, mais ce n'est pas la science.