Why do people say to never kick air?

[Alan0354]

Kicking air full power really hurts the knees in a long run. When you are young, you can get away with it, but watch out when you get older. This is a long game, not a few years deal.

Besides, you don't get power from kicking air, you gain speed only. Hitting a heavy bag is a totally different deal. That's where you get the power. Too much heavy bag will make you slow, so you really need both.

I don't like water based stuffs like Slam Man or others. It's too light to fill with water, I can knock it over just by punching. I never try to fill with sand, but then I have to worry about breaking the whole thing if the base doesn't give. I had both Slam Man and another one advertised by Chuck Norris at the time, I gave them away. I have one 100lbs long one and a 70lbs shorter one hanging. I hit one after the other to give me a better workout. I do half air and half heavy bags.

 

[JerryL]

The other theory is that you are stopping your striking rather than striking so that the other guy is required to stop it.

And a bag teaches you to stop at the bag.

You can create a justification for basically any rule.

 

[JerryL]

When practicing kicking they say never to kick air.

Why do you have to kick some thing as you cannot kick air and visualize some thing is there?

Because they like to sound clever.

That said, you should kick *through* your target.

 

[drop bear]

And a bag teaches you to stop at the bag.

You can create a justification for basically any rule.

Well the bag is designed to stop the kick. That is the whole point of it being there.

 

[JerryL]

Well the bag is designed to stop the kick. That is the whole point of it being there.

That's an over generalization.

I've kicked bags for the purpose of moving the bag. Whether sliding a bag along the floor or kicking through a swinging bag. The point of the bag was both to provide resistance (to determine if enough force is being applied) and (in the case of the bag on the floor) to provide resistance for muscle development.

The same is true with hand targets. You get the small bags used for timing, the hand pads used for targeting, and the post-in-floor (or heavy hanging) used to provide feedback on power and to give the muscles something to push against.

Every approach has benefits and risks. The risk of a (relatively) non-moving bag is that you learn to stop your own hand/foot at the bag... you don't follow through (because that gets you no better a response). When adrenaline kicks in (which tends to shorten movements) you may stop before even connecting. You see this sort of issue with light-contact sparring as well. In the fight, people do what they did in practice / sparring (though even more pulled, again because of adrenaline).

 

[drop bear]

That's an over generalization.

I've kicked bags for the purpose of moving the bag. Whether sliding a bag along the floor or kicking through a swinging bag. The point of the bag was both to provide resistance (to determine if enough force is being applied) and (in the case of the bag on the floor) to provide resistance for muscle development.

The same is true with hand targets. You get the small bags used for timing, the hand pads used for targeting, and the post-in-floor (or heavy hanging) used to provide feedback on power and to give the muscles something to push against.

Every approach has benefits and risks. The risk of a (relatively) non-moving bag is that you learn to stop your own hand/foot at the bag... you don't follow through (because that gets you no better a response). When adrenaline kicks in (which tends to shorten movements) you may stop before even connecting. You see this sort of issue with light-contact sparring as well. In the fight, people do what they did in practice / sparring (though even more pulled, again because of adrenaline).

I am going to have to disagree. And say the bags primary purpose is to stop the strike.

 

[JerryL]

I am going to have to disagree. And say the bags primary purpose is to stop the strike.

 

[Yokozuna514]

I believe Dropbear was referring to heavy bags since the discussion revolved around kick air vs kicking something else. Speed bags were not part of this discussion.

 

[drop bear]

Speed ball. Not really a bag.

 

[JerryL]

Speed ball. Not really a bag.

Feels like a "no true Scotsman" fallacy.

I did not use a heavy bag for the purpose of stopping my leg. I used it for other purposes.
I am not the only person on the planet for whom this is true.

Your claim is, at best, a generalization.

 

[JerryL]

I believe Dropbear was referring to heavy bags since the discussion revolved around kick air vs kicking something else. Speed bags were not part of this discussion.

His use of the word "strike" as opposed to "kick" certainly made it feel generalized.

That said, and as mentioned in two of my previous posts (one prior to your response); I did not (exclusively at least) use a heavy bag for that purpose. I used heavy bags, but for other purposes. His statement is, at best, an over generalization.

 

[Yokozuna514]

His use of the word "strike" as opposed to "kick" certainly made it feel generalized.

That said, and as mentioned in two of my previous posts (one prior to your response); I did not (exclusively at least) use a heavy bag for that purpose. I used heavy bags, but for other purposes. His statement is, at best, an over generalization.

Most people, myself included, use a heavy bag for the resistance it provides to strikes (ie: the closest approximation of hitting a person using punches or kicks). From what I read of your post you are saying you hit through the bag. Ok, no issue with this. Dropbear says the bag is meant to stop the kick. Also no issue there. Not sure what the disagreement is about unless you are saying your kick rips through the bag you are kicking through. If it is, I wouldn't mind seeing a video of it. If it isn't, then the kick is being stopped by the bag. In either case, we are discussing why people say you shouldn't kick air.

 

[drop bear]

Feels like a "no true Scotsman" fallacy.

I did not use a heavy bag for the purpose of stopping my leg. I used it for other purposes.
I am not the only person on the planet for whom this is true.

Your claim is, at best, a generalization.

I used a bag to practice my stink eye. But that doesn't mean the bags primary job is to stop strikes.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

And a bag teaches you to stop at the bag.

You can create a justification for basically any rule.

Actually, a bag teaches you to let the target stop you, same as if you kick a person.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You think folks are using a speedbag for kicks?

 

[JerryL]

The other theory is that you are stopping your striking rather than striking so that the other guy is required to stop it.

Any fighting school I've ever seen will tell you to hit through your target point. "punch through to the back of the head".

Most people, myself included, use a heavy bag for the resistance it provides to strikes (ie: the closest approximation of hitting a person using punches or kicks). From what I read of your post you are saying you hit through the bag. Ok, no issue with this. Dropbear says the bag is meant to stop the kick. Also no issue there. Not sure what the disagreement is about unless you are saying your kick rips through the bag you are kicking through. If it is, I wouldn't mind seeing a video of it. If it isn't, then the kick is being stopped by the bag. In either case, we are discussing why people say you shouldn't kick air.

The disagreements is that the other poster listed "stopping the kick" as the (implied) only use of a heavy bag. I've called it an over-generalization.

I used a bag to practice my stink eye. But that doesn't mean the bags primary job is to stop strikes.

Thanks for sharing.

Actually, a bag teaches you to let the target stop you, same as if you kick a person.

"let" the target stop you? It's a choice?
Why would you want the target to stop you. I don't.
When I kick a person, my leg doesn't stop on contact.

You think folks are using a speedbag for kicks?

You think I said that? Please quote.

 

[Yokozuna514]

Any fighting school I've ever seen will tell you to hit through your target point. "punch through to the back of the head".


The disagreements is that the other poster listed "stopping the kick" as the (implied) only use of a heavy bag. I've called it an over-generalization.


Thanks for sharing.


"let" the target stop you? It's a choice?
Why would you want the target to stop you. I don't.
When I kick a person, my leg doesn't stop on contact.


You think I said that? Please quote.

What ever point you are trying to make is not coming out clearly. Perhaps reread what you wrote and you will see that it is not clear at all. Why do you think there are so many people that are getting on your back for what you are writing unless your intent is just to stir the pot which seems rather pointless to me. If you aren't interested in getting a better understanding of the conversation and what people are saying, why are you here ?

 

[Deleted member 39746]

I can at least attest to hitting a target is diffrent to air, i tend to over extend and cant properly strike without a target. hitting a target at least takes some of the issues out of it for me.

 

[Alan0354]

I don't agree about punching "through" the head, that's too far back. To me, punching has an optimal focusing distance, there is one point in the distance that you focus the power, power diminish before and after the focusing point. Focus behind the head meaning power is far from optimal when you make contact to the face of the opponent. The symptom of focusing too deep is the heavy bag swing back a lot when you hit as you are more pushing the bag than hitting the bag.

That's why when you look at people punching heavy bags, you can tell right away whether the person know how to punch or not. For people that know how to punch, you can see the heavy bag dent in at the point of impact. It will sound loud with a crisp popping sound and the bag vibrates but not moving back. That's a good punch......Good penetration, dissipate all the energy at the point of contact, no energy is wasted in pushing the bag back.

If this is not clear enough, look at a boxer punching heavy bag. I remember seeing a video of Joe Fraiser punching a leather heavy bag, you can see the deep indent at the point of contact and the bag didn't even move. That's transferring all the energy into a single point and dig deep into the bag.

Also, I don't think people should rely on the bag to stop the punch, you contact, penetrate and you pull back. Or else in real fight, if the opponent dug and you miss, the punch will pull you off balance if there's nothing to stop you.

JMHO

 

[JerryL]

What ever point you are trying to make is not coming out clearly. Perhaps reread what you wrote and you will see that it is not clear at all. Why do you think there are so many people that are getting on your back for what you are writing unless your intent is just to stir the pot which seems rather pointless to me. If you aren't interested in getting a better understanding of the conversation and what people are saying, why are you here ?

Your entire post is flame baiting.

I can at least attest to hitting a target is diffrent to air, i tend to over extend and cant properly strike without a target. hitting a target at least takes some of the issues out of it for me.

Have you ever been in a fight or full-speed/contact sparring match? Did you miss even once? If so, how did you handle that and why can that not be applied when not in a fight / match?

That said yes, it's very different. It's important to get time in hitting something with mass. It's critical feedback to your system (in the case of punching, we get feedback on wrist position, hand position, what sorts of strikes our hands can dish without immediate injury, etc). It gets you used to the feel of the shock that travels back. For small bags it helps with timing and aim.

You don't want the first time you kick something and meet resistance to fall over because you'd been balancing only for kicking at air. There's a dozen important reasons to train against mass; just like there's a dozen reasons to train against a resisting opponent. There's no single reason, and not everyone focuses on the same sub-set of reasons.

I don't agree about punching "through" the head, that's too far back. To me, punching has an optimal focusing distance, there is one point in the distance that you focus the power, power diminish before and after the focusing point. Focus behind the head meaning power is far from optimal when you make contact to the face of the opponent. The symptom of focusing too deep is the heavy bag swing back a lot when you hit as you are more pushing the bag than hitting the bag.

That's why when you look at people punching heavy bags, you can tell right away whether the person know how to punch or not. For people that know how to punch, you can see the heavy bag dent in at the point of impact. It will sound loud with a crisp popping sound and the bag vibrates but not moving back. That's a good punch......Good penetration, dissipate all the energy at the point of contact, no energy is wasted in pushing the bag back.

If this is not clear enough, look at a boxer punching heavy bag. I remember seeing a video of Joe Fraiser punching a leather heavy bag, you can see the deep indent at the point of contact and the bag didn't even move. That's transferring all the energy into a single point and dig deep into the bag.

I recall long ago when two guys came in with an interest in where I was training. Their background was pretty heavily boxing. One of the things we had in the school was designed for professional football teams. It was essentially a bag with a car spring in the middle except for the last 2ft or so which was a metal post that went into the ground. It was intended to be hit by someone practicing tackling (or whatever the word for linemen clashing is).

They hit it, it bent 5-degrees. I hit it, it bent more than 30. When I punched heavy hanging bags, I 'did it right" when they "jumped", sprining upwards as much as back from the recoil against the chain (depending on the hit). It's not an attempt at bragging... our goals were different so our approach/training was different, so our results were different.

Most accidental deaths in street fights (at least the ones I've seen make the news) occur when someone's head bounces off the ground or other hard object. As they say "the floor is the biggest fist in the room". So one reason for punching through is because knocking someone down is a useful thing.

But there's another basic reason... we tend to shorten our movements when under the effects of adrenaline. So wherever you are practicing to hit, expect that you'll extend less than that in reality (unless you are some sort of stone-cold fighter who just doesn't get nerves... well, or drunk). It's a result of the higher than normal tension that your body places on itself (you have muscles fighting your movement).

Also, I don't think people should rely on the bag to stop the punch, you contact, penetrate and you pull back. Or else in real fight, if the opponent dug and you miss, the punch will pull you off balance if there's nothing to stop you.

Agreed, and this was reasonably my initial point when I responded.