tellner
Senior Master
I studied Kajukenbo with Sifu Al Dacascos for a number of years. I never found anything in the curriculum which addressed groundfighting in any realistic fashion. Nothing. Which branch of the family tree do you belong to?
why did you choose your art?
- Thread starter onibaku
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I studied Kajukenbo with Sifu Al Dacascos for a number of years. I never found anything in the curriculum which addressed groundfighting in any realistic fashion. Nothing. Which branch of the family tree do you belong to?
dru123
Yellow Belt
Tony Lasit branch. My instructor says he teaches more Judo/Jujitsu then most Kajukenbo schools, but reading the posts on http://www.kajukenbocafe.com/smf/ I would say most schools include ground fighting in their training. My instructors instructor was Dan Baker who is also 2nd degree black belt in Judo.
I am surprised that you found that to be so; I have studied with Sifu Al for a number of years, and he has always covered ground fighting in the curriculum. It is not BJJ-style ground fighting; ie fighting from your back in a guard; but he always covered sprawling, takedowns, escaping mounts, etc and then going into a good old GnP (although not using that terminology). Did you train with him in Portland? If so, we probably trained together for a while...
tellner
Senior Master
Yep. It was Portland at the old school out on Murray and the newer one off of Highway 8. For a few years in there he had me editing the IKF newsletter and sometimes teaching the stick class. Sifu Endrizzi's move to Portland was about midway through my Kajukenbo/WHKD career. I remember some throws and a few wrestling defenses, mostly out of the formal Kajukenbo curriculum. They weren't bad as far as they went. I just didn't learn anything that was for what to do once you were off your feet. The Judo influence just wasn't terribly strong.
That's not surprising. Sifu Dacascos had a lot more Kenpo, Chinese boxing and Escrima in his background than some others. And if memory serves Senseis Holck and Ordonez were not with the Black Belt Society for as long as, say, the Emperados.
And to be honest it might have been personal background. My first or second training was in Judo, and I had done some wrestling. That put me a bit ahead of most beginning Kajukenbo students and may have biased my view. This was about the time that Sifu Owens was investigating Capoeira and other teachers were talking more about Judo and Ju Jutsu. It may well be that by the mid-90s things had changed a bit. By then I was hanging out with evil-minded guys with clubs, knives and bad attitudes
I've always thought that something like Dog Kung Fu or Ground Boxing would have fit nicely with Kajukenbo, especially the more Chinese- and Filipino-influenced branches of the tree.
The only thing that I regret and will have nothing to do with under any circumstances is the classic Kajukenbo knife defense curriculum. There's no way to sugar coat it, and it's serious enough that I wouldn't even if there were. They are bad technique. Bad as in "They can get you killed." This isn't a slam at the Kajukenbo family.
I don't know if you knew Tim Gagnier. I think he's fifth or sixth dan. He was with Sid Lopez for a long time. He was also in Guru Plinck's Sera class on and off for a while. At the time we were doing a lot of beginning knife defense. Tim said that he had been looking for something to fill the void. He had ditched all the knife defense techniques and would not teach them. That was pretty harsh coming from someone who had put that much time, effort and love into his Art. We asked why.
It seems that one of his students, a Black Belt, had been with a group of friends who were attacked. And yes, that's what the police report concluded. It wasn't one of those "I was trying to stop them from fighting" or "Uhh, it was self defense Your Honor. That's right. Now I remember" things. As his friends were getting out of there Tim's student stayed to back to defend, did his knife counter crisply and correctly and was stabbed to death. After that Tim gave one of his senior students a practice knife and tried to make the knife defense curriculum work against an adaptive determined opponent. He couldn't get any of it to work for real or even semi-real.
I can only imagine how hard it was for him to make the decision. The man deserves a hell of a lot of respect for his integrity and personal honesty.
That's not surprising. Sifu Dacascos had a lot more Kenpo, Chinese boxing and Escrima in his background than some others. And if memory serves Senseis Holck and Ordonez were not with the Black Belt Society for as long as, say, the Emperados.
And to be honest it might have been personal background. My first or second training was in Judo, and I had done some wrestling. That put me a bit ahead of most beginning Kajukenbo students and may have biased my view. This was about the time that Sifu Owens was investigating Capoeira and other teachers were talking more about Judo and Ju Jutsu. It may well be that by the mid-90s things had changed a bit. By then I was hanging out with evil-minded guys with clubs, knives and bad attitudes
I've always thought that something like Dog Kung Fu or Ground Boxing would have fit nicely with Kajukenbo, especially the more Chinese- and Filipino-influenced branches of the tree.
The only thing that I regret and will have nothing to do with under any circumstances is the classic Kajukenbo knife defense curriculum. There's no way to sugar coat it, and it's serious enough that I wouldn't even if there were. They are bad technique. Bad as in "They can get you killed." This isn't a slam at the Kajukenbo family.
I don't know if you knew Tim Gagnier. I think he's fifth or sixth dan. He was with Sid Lopez for a long time. He was also in Guru Plinck's Sera class on and off for a while. At the time we were doing a lot of beginning knife defense. Tim said that he had been looking for something to fill the void. He had ditched all the knife defense techniques and would not teach them. That was pretty harsh coming from someone who had put that much time, effort and love into his Art. We asked why.
It seems that one of his students, a Black Belt, had been with a group of friends who were attacked. And yes, that's what the police report concluded. It wasn't one of those "I was trying to stop them from fighting" or "Uhh, it was self defense Your Honor. That's right. Now I remember" things. As his friends were getting out of there Tim's student stayed to back to defend, did his knife counter crisply and correctly and was stabbed to death. After that Tim gave one of his senior students a practice knife and tried to make the knife defense curriculum work against an adaptive determined opponent. He couldn't get any of it to work for real or even semi-real.
I can only imagine how hard it was for him to make the decision. The man deserves a hell of a lot of respect for his integrity and personal honesty.
I know Tim, at least in passing. In all likelihood, we may have trained a bit together at the Highway 8 school, although I started there in late 90s after training with one of Sifu Al's black belts earlier. As for the lack of Judo, etc, that is interesting that you had that experience; Sifu Al's first art was Judo, and he loves throwing people. It's probably a result of the fact that Sifu Al changes his focus every few years.
As for knife fighting, I understand your point completely; that's why Sifu Al and others have started to incorporate a lot more Escrima into their knife fighting, which adds a lot of effectiveness.
As for knife fighting, I understand your point completely; that's why Sifu Al and others have started to incorporate a lot more Escrima into their knife fighting, which adds a lot of effectiveness.
KajuJKDFighter
White Belt
I know Tim out of Oregon, he just talked at a big seminar at my school this Saturday and we actually discussed knife self defense. His mind set is a lot different now. I'm very realistic in my knife training and have been teaching it for 20 yrs, he thinks the same. By the way he was recently promoted to 8th degree, he had been a 7th for many years....
As far as ground work when I started teaching it in the early '90's people ignored it sometimes walked out of seminars. My training was for the most part under Larry Hartsell. We had been scouting the Gracie under ground tapes before the UFC.... We realized the ground work we had judo, jujitsu, wrestling......was lacking.. Hartsell was way ahead of his time......
As far as ground work when I started teaching it in the early '90's people ignored it sometimes walked out of seminars. My training was for the most part under Larry Hartsell. We had been scouting the Gracie under ground tapes before the UFC.... We realized the ground work we had judo, jujitsu, wrestling......was lacking.. Hartsell was way ahead of his time......
MarkBarlow
Purple Belt
I signed up for a Judo class just because I needed the credit for P.E. and was fascinated by the instructor. Mr. Marshall was in his 60s and around 5'3" and completely dominated a mat full of young men who were all bigger and stronger. He never quit smiling and his love of life was contagious. After a few months of judo, he allowed me to join a small jujutsu class he taught on weekends and the practicality hooked me even more. Before I knew it, a couple of decades had passed.
MantisStyle21
Orange Belt
Well, there's many reasons I chose my art, I had grown up around martial arts all my life because my brother was in it, so I knew it was only a matter of time before I got in it.
I've always respected my brother who has been an absolute father figure, So I decided I'd learn from the same instructor as he did. Then, I got there and fell in love with the school. The people were amazing, Sensei was as nice and caring as he was when I was 8, and the sense of family was so strong anyone could feel it the minute they walked in the dojo. Now I stay in it for the people and the fact that Shaolin Kung Fu never ceases to amaze me.
I've always respected my brother who has been an absolute father figure, So I decided I'd learn from the same instructor as he did. Then, I got there and fell in love with the school. The people were amazing, Sensei was as nice and caring as he was when I was 8, and the sense of family was so strong anyone could feel it the minute they walked in the dojo. Now I stay in it for the people and the fact that Shaolin Kung Fu never ceases to amaze me.
meth18au
Blue Belt
I was always kind of mystified with Muay Thai, and had shown some interest in it. Plus my Uncle has been involved in the martial arts for 25+ years, and recommended my current teacher as being very credible. I checked it out, loved the feel to the place, and then signed up. Just love the methods of training, the people at the gym, and also the culture/traditions of the Thai people and Muay Thai.
bookworm_cn317
2nd Black Belt
TKD was the only martial art offered at the Y my mom & I were members of at the time. And I had matured enough to not chicken out (like I did at 13- what can I say? I was shallow.) I stuck with it when I realized that it was a lot of fun.
NDNgirl4ever
Green Belt
I went in to watch a class, and I was really impressed. I decided to try karate, and I love it. I've made some friends, and I have a lot of fun.
thunderfoot
White Belt
I chose my art after observing a class once. I had some exposure to taekwondo (brother), but when I saw how easily it was for the karateka to take out a kicker, I knew this was the style for me.
dru123
Yellow Belt
I am not saying you are wrong, but there is a police officer over on the Kajukenbo Cafe (http://www.kajukenbocafe.com/smf/index.php) and in a knife related thread, he says he encountered many (untrained) knife wielding attackers and he states (I hope he doesn't mind me quoting him) "The techniques that worked for me over the years are the only ones I know-the standard knife defenses from Kajukenbo."
I have asked my instructor if he is going to teach us the Kajukenbo knife counters, and he said he would, but he also said the best defense against a knife is another knife.
dru123
Yellow Belt
Here is a good post from people (police officers) who have encountered knife attackers and what they did to survive them: http://www.kajukenbocafe.com/smf/index.php?topic=513.0
Jai
Black Belt
I was five years old and I remember watching a Bruce Lee double feature one Saturday and BEGGED my mom to let my take lessons of any kind. At the time there where only two schools in my area. So my mom and I hopped on the bus and went to check them out. I walked into this old apartment complex behind the local drug store. In the basement of this building was a middle aged man beating the crap out of six students and I fell in love. I never even went to look at the second school. I stayed with that school for seven years until it closed down. When it closed I moved to the local TKD school where I stayed full time but also went part time to other schools that had opened over time. Generally I would trade services, I would teach a night of TKD in exchange for a night of whatever the school had to offer. I did that until I met my wife and we moved to Minnesota. When I decided to start up again I again only had two options for schools. Choice 1 was god awful, to the point where I don't want to talk about it. I was actually glad for the knee problems that forced me to quit for a few years. When I started again I went to the only other school in the area. Not the most glorious of stories, but that is mine.
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