Why belong to an organization?

[A.R.K.]

I was doing some reading in the TKD forum regarding problems within the Kukkiwon/WTF, the ITF and others. Political corruption, large fees being charged, discrimination, favoritism, high ranking defection etc. And perhaps this is not limited to the TKD world either. I know first hand that there is great instability within the Uechi Ryu world with splinter factions breaking off because of dissatisfaction with policy change.

So this brings to mind the question...why belong to an organiztion at all?

What are the benefits as you see them?

What are the drawbacks as you see them?

Are you satisfied with being charged money for their 'seal of approval' on your training?

If you belong to an organization, do they know of your training firsthand or did they only seem to be interested in the money order?

What would you change about your organization if you could?

If you don't belong to one, why?

Thanks in advance for your participation, I'm looking forward to your input.

:asian:

 

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by A.R.K.
I was doing some reading in the TKD forum regarding problems within the Kukkiwon/WTF, the ITF and others. Political corruption, large fees being charged, discrimination, favoritism, high ranking defection etc. And perhaps this is not limited to the TKD world either. I know first hand that there is great instability within the Uechi Ryu world with splinter factions breaking off because of dissatisfaction with policy change.

So this brings to mind the question...why belong to an organiztion at all?

What are the benefits as you see them?

What are the drawbacks as you see them?

Are you satisfied with being charged money for their 'seal of approval' on your training?

If you belong to an organization, do they know of your training firsthand or did they only seem to be interested in the money order?

What would you change about your organization if you could?

If you don't belong to one, why?

Thanks in advance for your participation, I'm looking forward to your input.

:asian:

I guess one thing I'm looking for is an "umbrella" which people would recognize, and consider legit. That seems to be what most people look for.

The draw backs are the things you mention, favortism being one of them, and the idea that one can promote, or fire at will simply because they can.

At times, I thnk too much money is made. It seems everybody has to have their "cut." I'm not in favor of "supporting " others, and if you don't show, and spend money, you ain't "active."

Now, I'm ticked, so I better stop!

 

[Bob Hubbard]

For myself, I wouldn't join any group that just handed out certs. There are plenty of those out there.

I'm a member of the WMAA. Why? Couple of reasons.

1- I know my rank is worth something. Belts aren't just handed out, they are earned. Youre tested when ready, not according to the calendar.

2- The requirements to be a grading level officer (ie can award rank) are strict.

3- The quality of the training. The instructors at the camps so far have included Grandmasters, and experts from several systems. All of them are acknowledged experts in their fields.

4- Quality of the ciriculum. - It is layed out in an orderly fashion, with each step building on the previous.

5- There is an established, unbroken lineage. My instructor learned from the founder of the system.

6- Respect for tradition: One of its goals is the continuation of the GM's dream.

7- Accepted reconization. The WMAA is reconized world wide as a quality Modern Arnis organization. It's not just a small group of buddies giving each other atta-boys in a school gym.

The money is not the focus, it is on the quality of the training. I wouldn't be a member of any organization that just hands out certs. If you don't know my art, you can't judge my experteze. So, the paperwork issues by such a group is worthless. I can print it out myself on my printer.

I'll put it another way... I hold dozens of computer certifications. The only 2 I have that hold their value are my "A+" technician certification, and my "MCP" certification. Why? because the companies behind those 2 certificates are acnowledged at issuing quality certs. They are held much higher than the 'crash course 1 week boot camps' paper. The backing of what I've got on the PC side is solid.

Why would I accept anything less for my martial arts training?

 

[MountainSage]

If you are not a BB there is a need for an organization to bring you to the BB level, unless your lucky enough to find a teacher that isn't attached to ant given group. Technically I don't belong to the WTFTKD because I have never competed, I've never paid for a membership and our testing fee go to a dedicated fund to pay for plane tickets to bring the master to our dojang. My 2ndBB is allow to test us up to BB level, then we test in front of the master for BB.

Mountain Sage

 

[Seig]

I know that in the Kenpo forums we have really beaten this horse. I belong to the organization that I do for several reasons.
Some of the top ones are:
1.) I get world class instruction, not only in my art, but in business as well.
2.) Recognition for my students
3.) Recognition for myself.
4.) Someone/place I can use as a reference.

 

[MountainSage]

Seig,
In no way take my comments as flaming you, I am a philosophical purist. Just because you attached with a particular organization in no way assures "world class" instructor or business advise, if you have found one then that is great. Recognization is nice, but I feel it goes against the premise of MA. I see the MA about improving self not to impress others. Coming from a TKD background, organization, dojang, and ranks don't impress me. Show me, Teach me, or beat me with techique and skill, that impress me.

 

[Mithios]

Originally posted by MountainSage
Seig,
In no way take my comments as flaming you, I am a philosophical purist. Just because you attached with a particular organization in no way assures "world class" instructor or business advise, if you have found one then that is great. Recognization is nice, but I feel it goes against the premise of MA. I see the MA about improving self not to impress others. Coming from a TKD background, organization, dojang, and ranks don't impress me. Show me, Teach me, or beat me with techique and skill, that impress me.

I agree !!!

 

[A.R.K.]

Very interesting commentary so far, thanks for the participation.

Ok, lets shift this slightly and discuss organizations that could be classified as a rank mill. What are the distinguishing features of a rank mill in your opinion? How does a legitimate org differ from a rank mill in your opinion?

Thanks again :asian:

 

[Bob Hubbard]

rank mills issue certs without actually knowing the art that the cert is being issued for.

A quality cert is backed by an organization with rigid testing standards and experienced qualified instructors.

The idea of a "replacement" cert is only a moneytrap. "Jacks Karate International" has no business issuing a Monkey Kung Fu cert, unless the board actually has an experienced expert in Monkey Kung Fu to test the individuals knowledge.

The whole "I can tell by how he moves" bit to me, is often alot of hot air.

I will use myself as the example here (and piss off some folks too...hey, thats life).

I study Modern Arnis under Tim Hartman.
Tim is the most qualified to judge my skill.
But, lets say Tim and I part ways.
The next closest Modern Arnis group that would be familiar with the style of MA that I study would be the IMAF's. While there are differences between the groups, these are the 3 organizations that had the most contact with GM Presas prior to his death in 2001.

The independants did not have as much constant exposure, so they aren't as 'up to date'.

MARPPIO was formed after his death, and many of those involved, while quality arnisadors, again, did not have the constant exposure to the GM's thoughts and ideas during the last years of his life.

The same can be said of the groups outside the US.

The differences are enough that, you can qualify them as different 'styles'. So, while they may see me as a good martial artist, to their eyes, I don't know their Modern Arnis. So, why give me a cert? It would cheepen us both.

Rank mills issue certs to folks who simply put, cant hack it.

:asian:

 

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
rank mills issue certs without actually knowing the art that the cert is being issued for.

A quality cert is backed by an organization with rigid testing standards and experienced qualified instructors.

The idea of a "replacement" cert is only a moneytrap. "Jacks Karate International" has no business issuing a Monkey Kung Fu cert, unless the board actually has an experienced expert in Monkey Kung Fu to test the individuals knowledge.

The whole "I can tell by how he moves" bit to me, is often alot of hot air.

I will use myself as the example here (and piss off some folks too...hey, thats life).

I study Modern Arnis under Tim Hartman.
Tim is the most qualified to judge my skill.
But, lets say Tim and I part ways.
The next closest Modern Arnis group that would be familiar with the style of MA that I study would be the IMAF's. While there are differences between the groups, these are the 3 organizations that had the most contact with GM Presas prior to his death in 2001.

The independants did not have as much constant exposure, so they aren't as 'up to date'.

MARPPIO was formed after his death, and many of those involved, while quality arnisadors, again, did not have the constant exposure to the GM's thoughts and ideas during the last years of his life.

The same can be said of the groups outside the US.

The differences are enough that, you can qualify them as different 'styles'. So, while they may see me as a good martial artist, to their eyes, I don't know their Modern Arnis. So, why give me a cert? It would cheepen us both.

Rank mills issue certs to folks who simply put, cant hack it.

:asian:

You said, "I can't hack it?" We goin' to war Mista!:samurai:

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Tell ya what, rather than goto war, just send me $50 US and what title I should put on your cert, and you can be the proud owner of an off-i-cial "Martial Talk Black Belt" certificate. Honored everywhere and just as good as confederate cash.

:rofl:

 

[A.R.K.]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
rank mills issue certs without actually knowing the art that the cert is being issued for.

A quality cert is backed by an organization with rigid testing standards and experienced qualified instructors.

I agree with you on this. The organization needs to have instructors of the specific discipline of sufficent rank.

This is one of the requirements/stipulations I put into GMAST early on. Unfortunately we don't have a huge assortment of disciplines represented yet, but it is a good start. And we've had a number of instructors willing to evaluate practitioners of their discipline at no charge. I really like that, people helping people without lining their pockets in the process.

Very good input so far, thanks again. Btw, the MT BB...is that $50 per Dan or one flat rate and you pick your own degree

 

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
Tell ya what, rather than goto war, just send me $50 US and what title I should put on your cert, and you can be the proud owner of an off-i-cial "Martial Talk Black Belt" certificate. Honored everywhere and just as good as confederate cash.

:rofl:

Cool, I always wanted one of those. Don't forget my T shirt!

 

[Disco]

I know this thread has been buried for awhile, but I was taking some time to do a little sleuthing. I will preface this with the admission that there will be/are exceptions to my findings. I'll just deal with the so-called legit organizations. Some of the one's I made inquiries with will allow you to join as an individual. Other's will only accept school charters. Here's where they hit you. Yearly dues, Instructor certifications, school charters, student memberships, mandatory association memberships plus parent organization membership, extension learning (tapes) and the beat goes on.

The Politics involved is sickening. There is a catch 22 to all of this though. The big legit(?) organizations have cornered the market with ties back to the country of origin. If you want their anointment, it's going to cost ya. One has even gone so far as to offer an amnesty period so you can join and then have the time to be administered "authentic" instruction in their particular style.

The big kahuna of TKD, the Kukkiwon, Is no longer a player for people in the U.S. So all of us that put forth the time, effort and money for their certifications, now will find that there not worth the paper their printed on. In many circles, there not even considered Martial Arts certificates, but rather Martial Sport certificates. So much for strong organizational backing.

For my own personal viewpoint, I say I'll keep my money and continue to train with people who care. The bottom line; train in what you like and trust. If you believe in yourself and you know that it will allow you to protect yourself, that's all that matter's.
:soapbox:

 

[DAC..florida]

All organizations are not bad, some organizations dont have all the politics,

Look at the USADR, WIF, the International League of Martial Artists...........Just to name a few?:asian:

 

[don bohrer]

Shouldn't the local instructor take most of the credit or blame for an orgs rep? The Org I belong to is based out of Alb, and I rarely see the head instructor. My opinion is based on how they support my instructor and what they do for him more so than anything else. Personally I like being part of the kenpo community and attrib some of Kenpos success to like minded individuals willing to belong and support each other.

 

[DAC..florida]

Originally posted by don bohrer
Shouldn't the local instructor take most of the credit or blame for an orgs rep? The Org I belong to is based out of Alb, and I rarely see the head instructor. My opinion is based on how they support my instructor and what they do for him more so than anything else. Personally I like being part of the kenpo community and attrib some of Kenpos success to like minded individuals willing to belong and support each other.

:asian: Yeah! Thats what I meant!:asian:

 

[Kempojujutsu]

I have join couple Organization for myself. The one I was with, You could test and it would be months before getting your certificates. In my case going on 3 plus years. The Organization, things I would like to see. Good quality of martial arts being taught. Testing should be fair. Not charging an arm, leg and first born child to be promoted. Working syllabus. That was something that bugs me also. I spent 5 plus years with no syllabus. Just had to take notes. Good brotherhood of martial artists will to share there arts and to work together not against each other.
Bob :asian: