OP
OP
What do you include in your TKD?
- Thread starter Kong Soo Do
- Start date
OP
OP
I read an article/interview of, Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming in the JAMA several years ago. He was saying that the highest honor a student can give to his/her instructor is to exceed their ability and expand the art even farther than they did. That a good instructor would want his students to know even more by adding and experiencing more. I found that a very refreshing viewpoint.
OP
OP
Ah, thank you. Same as 'arm pounding' then. Yep, it is painful. But man, does it ever work! Sometimes you could just 'block' someone and they've had enough of the fight.
Done wrong it does damage to you that's not worth it in the long.
Done correct it, it makes people not want to put limbs out there for you to hit.
I'm guessing by "wrist" you mean in the inner forearm, correct? And you need to balance it by doing the outside bone as well. Correctly...
dancingalone
Grandmaster
This reply should not be seen as me challenging you, Arch, as I have a lot of respect for you and how you have conducted yourself on MT over the years. I always enjoy reading your thoughts.
However, some terms can sound exotic to taekwondoin precisely because their practice is not common within taekwondo. It is what it is, not a criticism. Every martial art has its characteristics - for TKD that happens to be athletic kicking among other things, but TKD generally is NOT the art other martial artists think of when the following terms are brought up.
Most of these phrases or terms are from the practice of Chin Na, a Chinese subset of grappling and striking skills taught along side the 'normal kung fu'. Some styles such as Eagle Claw or Tiger Claw are particularly famous for these methods, and the bulk of them require gripping and striking/ripping/pulling/pressing with the hand and fingers - so a roundhouse kick would not be applicable here.
DIVIDING the MUSCLE and TENDON is manipulation with the fingers and hands in such a fashion as to misplace or tear another person's muscles and tendons. Many of these techniques don't require a lot of strength in the hands to execute, but some do and thus there are a lot of exercises done to make the fingers powerful yet tactile. An example would be tearing the tendons which allow a person to close their fist, ending a fight quickly.
MISPLACING the bone is simply moving the bones the wrong way as to cause pain and damage. A wrist lock is probably the common example of this. Chin Na experts however know A LOT of weird ways to grip the various parts of the body to provide the unique leverage to break joints - even when they are in standing position without the added torque from having forced someone else prone to the ground.
Balance misplacement is not one of the main inquiry lines of Chin Na, but from my studies in aikido and judo, I obviously think it's important. The basic principle of forcing or tricking a foe to break up his head/shoulder/hip/feet alignment is obvious to anyone who has practiced more than a few years, but there is a vast practice of the assorted ways to accomplish that. I guess whacking someone in the head with a roundhouse kick might be one way of doing it - perhaps even a good one - but by and large I don't know that TKD has a comprehensive way of teaching the subject outside of hit, hit, and hit again.
Cavity pressing is an advanced body of knowledge most commonly found in Chinese martial arts. It is considered master level knowledge and honestly I doubt many still know it today. And those that do don't talk about it much. It is not exactly the same thing as the pressure point striking, something that many taekwondoin know a little bit about (usually knowledge of where to block an attacker's arm to numb it). It is that and more. An adept of cavity pressing understands Eastern medicine and he can disrupt another person's blood and electrical flow (chi?) with judicious strikes at the pressure points, meridians, and organ points. The end result can be mere temporary loss of fighting capacity in a certain limb or it can be more - total disruption, even leading to a stroke and death. This likewise requires more accuracy than an instep roundhouse kick can deliver.
As for sealing the breath...well you win on that one. It's essentially keeping someone from breathing by disrupting the function of their windpipe, their lungs, the stomach muscles, or in specialized cases the vital points that involuntarily cause the lungs/stomach muscles to contract. A good hard RH kick can do the job placed judiciously even if it is not an elegant solution.
Not exactly. Hard body conditioning, at least in my experience, refers to the specific buildup of muscle, bone, and 'inner strength' to protect ones vital areas and create striking weapons with one's limbs. Most here are probably somewhat familiar with the arm and leg banging exercises to build up bone strength and density. I imagine a much smaller number have practiced something like sanchin kata or iron vest exercises or snake arm exercises to build up resistance to damage in the neck, torso, and arms and shoulders. It's much more rarified territory even outside of Korean martial arts.
We all do a few basic things, like a couple of wrist locks and a shoulder throw and a hip throw. Few do more. How many TKD dojang teach all of Funakoshi, Gichin's 9 throws of Shotokan? How many really teach chokes in an appreciable way considering the general age group of the students? I think it's fair to say this is not a strong area for TKD overall. On the other hand, TKD people usually are very good sparrers.
To be frank, I don't think Kong Soo Do is necessarily being dismissive of TKD in discussing these shortcomings. I personally don't think these things were taught to any great extent within Shotokan karate either, so unless some of the pioneers blended in a heavy dosage of Chinese martial arts along the way, there would be no reason to expect TKD to have such things.
This reply should not be seen as me challenging you, Arch, as I have a lot of respect for you and how you have conducted yourself on MT over the years. I always enjoy reading your thoughts.
However, some terms can sound exotic to taekwondoin precisely because their practice is not common within taekwondo. It is what it is, not a criticism. Every martial art has its characteristics - for TKD that happens to be athletic kicking among other things, but TKD generally is NOT the art other martial artists think of when the following terms are brought up.
Most of these phrases or terms are from the practice of Chin Na, a Chinese subset of grappling and striking skills taught along side the 'normal kung fu'. Some styles such as Eagle Claw or Tiger Claw are particularly famous for these methods, and the bulk of them require gripping and striking/ripping/pulling/pressing with the hand and fingers - so a roundhouse kick would not be applicable here.
DIVIDING the MUSCLE and TENDON is manipulation with the fingers and hands in such a fashion as to misplace or tear another person's muscles and tendons. Many of these techniques don't require a lot of strength in the hands to execute, but some do and thus there are a lot of exercises done to make the fingers powerful yet tactile. An example would be tearing the tendons which allow a person to close their fist, ending a fight quickly.
MISPLACING the bone is simply moving the bones the wrong way as to cause pain and damage. A wrist lock is probably the common example of this. Chin Na experts however know A LOT of weird ways to grip the various parts of the body to provide the unique leverage to break joints - even when they are in standing position without the added torque from having forced someone else prone to the ground.
Balance misplacement is not one of the main inquiry lines of Chin Na, but from my studies in aikido and judo, I obviously think it's important. The basic principle of forcing or tricking a foe to break up his head/shoulder/hip/feet alignment is obvious to anyone who has practiced more than a few years, but there is a vast practice of the assorted ways to accomplish that. I guess whacking someone in the head with a roundhouse kick might be one way of doing it - perhaps even a good one - but by and large I don't know that TKD has a comprehensive way of teaching the subject outside of hit, hit, and hit again.
Cavity pressing is an advanced body of knowledge most commonly found in Chinese martial arts. It is considered master level knowledge and honestly I doubt many still know it today. And those that do don't talk about it much. It is not exactly the same thing as the pressure point striking, something that many taekwondoin know a little bit about (usually knowledge of where to block an attacker's arm to numb it). It is that and more. An adept of cavity pressing understands Eastern medicine and he can disrupt another person's blood and electrical flow (chi?) with judicious strikes at the pressure points, meridians, and organ points. The end result can be mere temporary loss of fighting capacity in a certain limb or it can be more - total disruption, even leading to a stroke and death. This likewise requires more accuracy than an instep roundhouse kick can deliver.
As for sealing the breath...well you win on that one. It's essentially keeping someone from breathing by disrupting the function of their windpipe, their lungs, the stomach muscles, or in specialized cases the vital points that involuntarily cause the lungs/stomach muscles to contract. A good hard RH kick can do the job placed judiciously even if it is not an elegant solution.
Not exactly. Hard body conditioning, at least in my experience, refers to the specific buildup of muscle, bone, and 'inner strength' to protect ones vital areas and create striking weapons with one's limbs. Most here are probably somewhat familiar with the arm and leg banging exercises to build up bone strength and density. I imagine a much smaller number have practiced something like sanchin kata or iron vest exercises or snake arm exercises to build up resistance to damage in the neck, torso, and arms and shoulders. It's much more rarified territory even outside of Korean martial arts.
We all do a few basic things, like a couple of wrist locks and a shoulder throw and a hip throw. Few do more. How many TKD dojang teach all of Funakoshi, Gichin's 9 throws of Shotokan? How many really teach chokes in an appreciable way considering the general age group of the students? I think it's fair to say this is not a strong area for TKD overall. On the other hand, TKD people usually are very good sparrers.
To be frank, I don't think Kong Soo Do is necessarily being dismissive of TKD in discussing these shortcomings. I personally don't think these things were taught to any great extent within Shotokan karate either, so unless some of the pioneers blended in a heavy dosage of Chinese martial arts along the way, there would be no reason to expect TKD to have such things.
Hey hit me up offline. I've gotta question that I don't want to derail things here. Just a question...
OP
OP
This reply should not be seen as me challenging you, Arch, as I have a lot of respect for you and how you have conducted yourself on MT over the years. I always enjoy reading your thoughts.
However, some terms can sound exotic to taekwondoin precisely because their practice is not common within taekwondo. It is what it is, not a criticism. Every martial art has its characteristics - for TKD that happens to be athletic kicking among other things, but TKD generally is NOT the art other martial artists think of when the following terms are brought up.
Most of these phrases or terms are from the practice of Chin Na, a Chinese subset of grappling and striking skills taught along side the 'normal kung fu'. Some styles such as Eagle Claw or Tiger Claw are particularly famous for these methods, and the bulk of them require gripping and striking/ripping/pulling/pressing with the hand and fingers - so a roundhouse kick would not be applicable here.
DIVIDING the MUSCLE and TENDON is manipulation with the fingers and hands in such a fashion as to misplace or tear another person's muscles and tendons. Many of these techniques don't require a lot of strength in the hands to execute, but some do and thus there are a lot of exercises done to make the fingers powerful yet tactile. An example would be tearing the tendons which allow a person to close their fist, ending a fight quickly.
MISPLACING the bone is simply moving the bones the wrong way as to cause pain and damage. A wrist lock is probably the common example of this. Chin Na experts however know A LOT of weird ways to grip the various parts of the body to provide the unique leverage to break joints - even when they are in standing position without the added torque from having forced someone else prone to the ground.
Balance misplacement is not one of the main inquiry lines of Chin Na, but from my studies in aikido and judo, I obviously think it's important. The basic principle of forcing or tricking a foe to break up his head/shoulder/hip/feet alignment is obvious to anyone who has practiced more than a few years, but there is a vast practice of the assorted ways to accomplish that. I guess whacking someone in the head with a roundhouse kick might be one way of doing it - perhaps even a good one - but by and large I don't know that TKD has a comprehensive way of teaching the subject outside of hit, hit, and hit again.
Cavity pressing is an advanced body of knowledge most commonly found in Chinese martial arts. It is considered master level knowledge and honestly I doubt many still know it today. And those that do don't talk about it much. It is not exactly the same thing as the pressure point striking, something that many taekwondoin know a little bit about (usually knowledge of where to block an attacker's arm to numb it). It is that and more. An adept of cavity pressing understands Eastern medicine and he can disrupt another person's blood and electrical flow (chi?) with judicious strikes at the pressure points, meridians, and organ points. The end result can be mere temporary loss of fighting capacity in a certain limb or it can be more - total disruption, even leading to a stroke and death. This likewise requires more accuracy than an instep roundhouse kick can deliver.
As for sealing the breath...well you win on that one. It's essentially keeping someone from breathing by disrupting the function of their windpipe, their lungs, the stomach muscles, or in specialized cases the vital points that involuntarily cause the lungs/stomach muscles to contract. A good hard RH kick can do the job placed judiciously even if it is not an elegant solution.
Not exactly. Hard body conditioning, at least in my experience, refers to the specific buildup of muscle, bone, and 'inner strength' to protect ones vital areas and create striking weapons with one's limbs. Most here are probably somewhat familiar with the arm and leg banging exercises to build up bone strength and density. I imagine a much smaller number have practiced something like sanchin kata or iron vest exercises or snake arm exercises to build up resistance to damage in the neck, torso, and arms and shoulders. It's much more rarified territory even outside of Korean martial arts.
We all do a few basic things, like a couple of wrist locks and a shoulder throw and a hip throw. Few do more. How many TKD dojang teach all of Funakoshi, Gichin's 9 throws of Shotokan? How many really teach chokes in an appreciable way considering the general age group of the students? I think it's fair to say this is not a strong area for TKD overall. On the other hand, TKD people usually are very good sparrers.
To be frank, I don't think Kong Soo Do is necessarily being dismissive of TKD in discussing these shortcomings. I personally don't think these things were taught to any great extent within Shotokan karate either, so unless some of the pioneers blended in a heavy dosage of Chinese martial arts along the way, there would be no reason to expect TKD to have such things.
Excellent post.
This thread should be considered as a way to discuss, and enjoy the diversity of the art of TKD. Some are strictly sport, some strictly SD and some fall somewhere between the two end points. That is why the thread was created. Perhaps the couple that did not originally see it in that light can rejoin the thread from this perspective and share their positive thoughts to contribute. Then everyone wins.
andyjeffries
Senior Master
Our dojang is a pure Kukki-Taekwondo school. So we do some simple self defence, some step sparring, some WTF rules (with reduced contact) sparring and drills and Kukkiwon poomsae.
Strictly Kukki-Taekwondo.
We do locks and throws as part of Kukki-Taekwondo step sparring/self defence. We don't do so much on chokes, but some people do.
Personally I feel our Taekwondo is missing any form of ground training. I personally also did a bit of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu to fill this gap in my knowledge (had a while off now as it was aggravating my injured/operated/healing knee but I'm hoping to go back within the next few weeks).
Just hogu drills and normal stomach/cardio exercises, if you can consider that conditioning.
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Dancingalone; You are much better than I at articulating many things and getting to the core of difficult issues. The intention of my post was to make a caveat regarding the danger of semantics. Based on what I often see on our beloved taekwondo forum we could be talking about the same things, but argue to no end because we use different terms and have different aims. Think of the insurance folks, who even prior to the Sarbanes-Oxely Act of 2002 always insist they provide "financial products" and refuse to mention the word insurance. Thats the legislation, which allowed banks and insurance companies to join hand and cross sell all sorts of financial things.
Our understanding of taekwondo will differ across the board depending on our experience, and Mastercole alluded to this. What we adults bring to the dojos and dojangs where we learn and teach specific martial arts is a collective set of knowledge, which is not often expressed or articulated the same way. I have heard the good fortune to learn taekwondo from different teachers, who all happened to have a very strong emphasis on what I now understand to be the core of Kukki taekwondo: basics, poomsae, sparring, self defense and breaking.
Almost all the teachers who taught me are men of few words, who rarely spoke in detail about the things they taught, but they insisted that conditioning and steady practice of the core was key to learning. Its only after persistent training over the years that I now see and understand what would be the end result of the techniques that my teachers taught. I can bet you those end results will not differ much from lots of the things, which have and will continue to be debated to no end on this thread, under different names and terms.
Gnarlie
Master of Arts
What he said. Don't try this at home, kids. Of course, it's part of a structured progression, you can't just go in there and whale on each other. That way lies a rocky path.
I've seen quite a bit of good discussion lately on what and how various arts teach in their curriculum. I thought it would make for an interesting thread in regards to the specifics of your TKD curriculum. TKD of course has various organizations of varying size and focus. And of course we have many independent dojangs and those that could be considered hybrid with other arts as well.
Thank you in advance.
- What is the focus of your particular dojang and/or organization to which you may belong (Are you more oriented towards a sport focus or towards self-defense or is there a mix)?
- Is your dojang considered by you and/or the instructor as strictly TKD or is it a hybrid with something else (and if so, what).
- Do you include things like locks, chokes, throws, balance displacement, cavity pressing, misplacing the bone/tendons, sealing the breath or arteries?
- Do you feel your TKD is complete? Would there be something you'd add (or delete) if you could?
- What level of conditioning do you do in training? Any hard-body conditioning?
I always enjoy these threads because I end up walking away with something new to try and sometimes even incorporate into my own classes.
I almost exclusively teach Taekwondo now, but occasionally, I'll shake things up with an introductory class focused on Kendo or Haedong Gumdo. My primary focus is on self defense however, we do recognize the benefits of and incorporate sparring as governed by the WTF. The Taekwondo techniques I teach are based on those of the Kukkiwon curriculum. I do encourage and occasionally host visitors from other arts. I believe students benefit from seeing how their art compares to others.
Unlike many schools, we don't spend much time on cardio conditioning beyond warm ups, but we do address hand/forearm/shin/foot conditioning. The reasoning is, I stress conditioning can and should be done by each individual on their own time. Class time is valuable and is for training on things that are best done in a controlled environment such as techniques. I tell students when I do and don't expect them to practice techniques outside of class. Example being poomses are fine, but locks, certain strikes and submissions, absolutely not; Initially anyway. However, I have had classes where I sensed conditioning wasn't were it should be and spent the entire class on that. As intended, students don't generally like it when I do this, so it's rarely an issue.
We spend pretty much equal time on hand and foot techniques. Regardless of what's on any given day's agenda, we always make time for fundamental kicking. From there, we do practice kicks in all ranges, but I prefer to stress low kicks to the knees and thighs along with sweeps. We practice kicks with different impact points such as in step, ball or heel. We spend as much time on control as we do on power.
We practice every hand technique imaginable from every angle imaginable including the ground, and when each one is most effective. We do practice escapes, but I don't focus on take downs. I do however, think one should know how to get out of them. We practice close in techniques including strikes with knees and elbows, in step and head butts, etc. We introduce some fundamental locking techniques and body leveraging to newer students including when such techniques are or aren't a good idea, but don't get to in depth until after black belt. How advanced I get depends quite a bit on the student.
All students have sparring equipment. Most of our sparring is done in forearm and shin guards, but we do use a hogu and head gear for full contact. We do compete from time to time, but nowhere near as much as we did in NY. We don't generally do well because we don't put in the time required to compete at a high level, but I think it's a great experience for any martial student.
I spend quite a bit more time on basics than most commercial schools can afford to. I realize it may get monotonous, but it is what it is. To be proficient at anything requires repetition. I'd rather have a student quit because they got bored than to have them loose in an altercation. I feel confident in our over all curriculum, but I do wish I had a 4" pad so I could practice throws and landings. Maybe next year.
OP
OP
Absolutely correct. This is age appropriate training. You could relate it to weight training for children. A young child would benefit from doing push ups, chin ups, body weight squats etc, but you wouldn't have an 8 year old child doing Strong lifts 5x5 or German Volume Training (GVT). It isn't appropriate for them at that age. And you certainly don't start out like the videos I posted.
Age appropriate and progressive.
OP
OP
Thank you for bringing this to the thread. If I use a term that you (or anyone) is not familiar with, please ask me to clarify. Sometimes I'll use a term that is second nature to me, such as what we might use in Law Enforcement training circles, but isn't a common term outside of it. It isn't intentional and if I need to clarify something I'd be happy to do so.
Manny
Senior Master
Well, I will try to be clear and hope you will understand me cause English is not my languaje. In the classes of TKD that I teach besides the TKD program (KUKI/WTF) I teach certain techs not from TKD, and I am talking about self defense techs and aplications. So I tecah some akido/judo teachs and some kenpo karate techs.
As you may know class I teach is self defense oriented.
Manny
As you may know class I teach is self defense oriented.
Manny
Manny
Senior Master
May God bless you my friend. From waht you wrote above I must conclude your TKD class is a very good one. I agree with you in some of the points. Tha dojang of my master has not top notch competitors but the kids ocasionally fight in TKD tournaments and this is good. Our training is not so much cardio oriented but it helps to stay in shape and as you wrote time inside dojang is so precius we have to deal with some things more importante than for example doing only silly kicking drills.
I like to stress in basics, so I would rather do a very good gut kick and deliver all the power I have on it that trying to do flamboyand/aerial kicks to the head that can miss in a very bad situation, I also like to use some kind of locks, sweeps,trows,etc to escape of bad guys than getting to florr trying to aply a submision (ala BJJ) that I really don't know how to use it.
Manny
Out of curiosity, is any of this stuff that you mention real? Does it really pertain to the OP? Or are you just stirring the pot and taking a shot at the OP? Perhaps if you dont have anything productive to say regarding the OP, then saying nothing would be best. I'd hate to have to start handing out ICs to people because they can't follow the rules. If you're not interested in a members posts, a) ignore them or b) just dont reply to them.
