who's who

[glad2bhere]

Dear Howard:

Many thanks. Todd contacted me off-line and I have his phone# so I will be speaking to him directly. Just one other question. When making preparations how much "lead time" might I need? By this I mean, what is a comfortable time frame in which one can make the necessary arrangements? Pushed a bit more, what would be the tightest time frame that one could make the arrangements in. Thoughts?

BTW: Hmmmm, "no attitude"?? Damn. Guess I'm going to have to park my "swagger" at the door, ne? Thanks for the good word. :asian:

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[howard]

bruce, you shouldn't have any problem arranging the round trip flight from the states. if you go with todd's group, todd will probably be in touch with master im about a hotel, so you're probably best off speaking directly with him. he'll probably also coordinate a training schedule with master im and his instructors.

regarding "swagger", yeah, if you have any, i'd definitely leave it at the door if i were you. but if you just treat the jungkikwan people with basic respect and show a desire to learn, they will do all they can to teach you. and you will not be disappointed.

todd, hope i'm not putting words in your mouth... all the best, howard

 

[Master Todd Miller]

Not at all Howard. I got a chance to meet and train with Bruce a little bit out in Chicago at Kevin Sogors GM Lim seminar and I think Bruce would enjoy it. My motto is be honest and have an honest spirit and desire to learn. I would say you would need to make a decsision by July 16th just to have time to get the best deal on flights.

Take care
Todd Miller
Korea Jungki Hapkido & Guhapdo Assc.
www.millersmudo.com

 

[iron_ox]

Hello all,

How about this as a supplemental question to the starter question of this thread - who was Korea's greatest martial artist in recent history?

For my money the answer is easy, Choi, Yong Sul. EVERY throwing art and teacher passed through his doors. The Suh family, J.B.Lee, Ji Han Jae - all of them - if someone did not, then the guy who taught him did. Taekwondo's self defense techniques are from Chung Ki Tae in Canada - a Choi student (ref. the first Taekwondo text to see him in action - orange cover book).

Hwarangdo, KukSoolWon, blah, blah, blah, they all lead back to one man - a real man - Choi, Yong Sul. Granted, many of the "founders" of these offshoots claim training from monks, granddad's or telepathic grannies - but for some reason they all have trained with Choi.

Just a thought.

Sincerely,

Kevin Sogor

 

[iron_ox]

Hello again,

As Master Miller said, I am trying to get my stuff together to get to Korea in September - if I can make it it should be fun (?) -

Kevin Sogor

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Kevin:

I agree with your nomination of Yong Sul Choi, but with one caveat.

When it comes to discussing this particular person there is much that is found only in oral traditions and little in the way of documented proof. I don't say this to call HIS bonafides into question. We can discuss such things forever and a day. Rather, because his vitae is so sparse on hard evidence, I think many folks who seek to make something of themselves use Yong Sul Choi to authenticate what they do. I think it has come to work like this.

Teacher "A" studies some stuff and maybe some of that "stuff" included time spent with Yong Sul Choi. Now maybe Teacher "A" was concurrently studying something else, or maybe afterwards he studied something else. However, when pressed for authentification Teacher "A" tells people that he studied under Yong Sul Choi and the conclusion is that whatever Teacher A is providing must have come from Yong Sul Choi. Even students of Chois' students have laid claim to learning directly from Choi as have folks who trained with him for a few years--- or less.

For me, then, it is enough to recognize him as the well-spring from which a Korean tradition proceeds and that he merits much regard and respect if only for that. Getting past his generation, and maybe even the next, I think we need to consider technical matters carefully. Make sense?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Master Todd Miller]

I have to agree with Kevin, Doju Nim Choi is THE most influencial man in modern Korean Martial Arts. Without Choi there would be no Hapkido, Kuk Sool, Hwarangdo, Han Pul etc.

Take care
Todd Miller
Korea Jungki Hapkido & Guhapdo Assc.
www.milersmudo.com

 

[glad2bhere]

Well, I would agree that we most probably wouldn't have the "things" named as they are, but we still would have had the traditions. Koreans still had "yu sool", "ship pal gi", "soo bahk", and "kwon bup". But without the Choi lineage these things you have mentioned would not have come into being, unless maybe if Jang Im Mok had been more pro-active (or maybe one of his students). The Japanese always had the edge in this matter since their culture seemed to institutionalize martial traditions with great abandon. But, now, if we are going to speak of Choi as a well-spring, why would we start there? Why not back up to King Sejo (1455-1468) whose various books and restructurings gave Korean martial science much of the foundations that it has today. Or you can use King Sunjo (1567-1608) who not only established the Royal Military Academy but also ordered the writing of the Mu Ye JeBo, the earliest version of the Mu Yei To Bo Tong Ji. For me this is where Korean martial arts really starts. As far as "hapkido" I AM grateful that we have this title rather than "hapki yu kwon sool". All the same we still would have had the activities. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Master Todd Miller]

But without the Choi lineage these things you have mentioned would not have come into being, unless maybe if Jang Im Mok had been more pro-active (or maybe one of his students)

There was definately some form of Yu Sool in Korea before Choi. It is very evident that what Choi brought to the table was a very high level martial art and even though there were similar arts there were none that were at the level of Choi's Hapki Yu Sool. This is why every major person in Hapkido trained with Choi.

Just some thoughts.

Take care
Todd Miller
Korea Jungki Hapkido & Guhapdo Assc.
www.millersmudo.com

 

[MichiganTKD]

If you stay within the locking/throwing arts (i.e. Hapkido, Kuk Sool) then undoubtably Choi is important. However, even as a traditional Tae Kwon Do-ist, locking and throwing are not important parts of our program. So to say that Choi was a major influence on TKD as well as HKD/KSW is not true. If it were, TKD would include just as many locks as strikes. It does not. Some schools may teach it that way. And I consider those Hapkido or Hapkido-influenced. The majority, including ours, teach TKD as a striking/kicking/blocking art. Joint locks may have a place in our program, but not a major one. In fact, I've never seen our Instructor show locking or throwing except as minor self defense techniques. In other words, he didn't stress them. He always emphasized attacking and blocking.
I do, however, respect certain Hapkido locks as initial self defense techniques. For example, if someone grabs, responding initially with a wrist torque. If they persist or attack again, using a TKD strike. I usually prefer Tae Kwon Do against more serious attacks.

 

[glad2bhere]

Yep, and I think thats why its important to keep things framed well. Because the Koreans themselves have not been invested in raising their traditions to the level that other cultures have, I think its important to recognize when someone comes along and opens that door. The Okinawans, for instance, had their own form of self-defense (To-de) but the infusion of Chinese boxing from the mailalnd really lent versatility and structure to the art. I think that Choi's various lineages did likewise. PLEASE-- I don't want to get into that whole thing about what he studied and how far he went. I think its suffice to say that he studied "something" and he brought it back to Korea. Those who followed after him were obviously disposed towards increasing the level of sophistication and structure of the art. My sense is that they would have followed values and approaches that their teacher would have instilled in them. From that point of view I would have to go along with everyone else and ID Chois as the greatest Hapkido personality. Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Master Todd Miller]

Some of Choi's students only learned a number of techniques. Others learned the principles of the techniques. Wich one is going to understand hapkido and its principles better? Many of Chois students were accomplished Taekwondoist and trained with Choi for a while so there Hapkido is going to look alot like Taekwondo.
:asian:
Just some thoughts.

Take care
Todd Miller
Korea Jungki Hapkido & Guhapdo Assc.
www.millersmudo.com

 

[kwanjang]

I think there can be no doubt about GM Choi's influence in Korea. My late GM, Pak In Shyuk, used to have his picture prominently displayed on his dojang wall, and there was an obvious reverence there despite the fact he later trained with GM Suh and Seo.

I think in the striking arts, the late General Choi was probably the prominent figure in terms of promoting Tae Kwon Do as a martial art, and he likely edges out GM Hwang Kee for top spot.

 

[Master Todd Miller]

I think in the striking arts, the late General Choi was probably the prominent figure in terms of promoting Tae Kwon Do as a martial art, and he likely edges out GM Hwang Kee for top spot.


I agree GM T. I think Choi, Yong Sool in Hapkido and Gen Choi in Taekwondo.

Take care
Todd Miller
Korea Jungki Hapkido & Guhapdo Assc.
www.millersmudo.com

 

[kwanjang]

Hello Tod KJN:
I hope next time I'm in Korea I'll have a chance to come visit with your GM. He sure sounds like the real deal to me, and you are one lucky man to have a good Master to work with. What a novel idea to treat people with respect regardless of affiliation. Hard to come by in these days where it sems to be the norm to snub anyone not in your particular group Hang on to that man my friend.

 

[MichiganTKD]

As a Tae Kwon Do Instructor and student, I hang out and practice with Tae Kwon Do people. Nothing against Hapkido, Kuk Sool, or other stylists, but they do what they do and I do what I do. When someone asks me what I practice and what I teach, I can tell them "I am a Tae Kwon Do Instructor and student." No "I practice and teach Tae Kwon Do with some of this thrown in and I do this as well". I know where I stand.

 

[howard]

Hello Tod KJN:
I hope next time I'm in Korea I'll have a chance to come visit with your GM. He sure sounds like the real deal to me, and you are one lucky man to have a good Master to work with. What a novel idea to treat people with respect regardless of affiliation. Hard to come by in these days where it sems to be the norm to snub anyone not in your particular group Hang on to that man my friend.

rudy, you are right, he is definitely the real deal. todd has described him very accurately. i can't help but be in awe of master im and his instructors.

visiting his dojang was one of the most humbling experiences of my entire life. it was really kind of funny, the other student who was with us and who was my training partner, and i, after our first session with master im's instructors, just looked at each other and said, "damn, i feel like a brand new white belt after what i just saw!" we were just shaking our heads in disbelief. and, mind you, our teacher is truly excellent, so it's not as if we had never seen the real thing.

plus, master im is just such a decent, honorable man. i remember a conversation he had with our teacher, he was talking about his upcoming trip to the u.s., and how he felt that he had to honor the memory of the late master mike wollmerhauser, to acknowledge him as a fellow martial artist. even though he spoke in korean and used one of his senior instructors as an interpreter, it was still very moving.

finally, he can tell great stories about his years with choi young sool. my favorite is the one about how when he first started training, he found outside lead wrist locks very painful (like all of us). so, he did drills endlessly to increase his pain tolerance to that lock. then one day, choi young sool was demonstrating a technique, and he put an outside lead lock on master im, and master im just smiled at him, as if to say, "this doesn't hurt any more." so choi young sool got very stern, and slapped the living daylights out of master im!

great story.

if you have any opportunity to visit the jungkikwan dojang, don't pass it up.

 

[kwanjang]

plus, master im is just such a decent, honorable man. i remember a conversation he had with our teacher, he was talking about his upcoming trip to the u.s., and how he felt that he had to honor the memory of the late master mike wollmerhauser, to acknowledge him as a fellow martial artist. even though he spoke in korean and used one of his senior instructors as an interpreter, it was still very moving.

Thanks for this very eloquent post about Master Im. I sure will make every effort to visit. Thanks for sharing this info.

 

[howard]

rudy, thank you for your kind words. i really hope you make it to daegu.

i'm hoping to go back in february or march of next year.

 

[Master Todd Miller]

I am hoping that we will be able to bring GM Lim to the USA for 10 days next year around March. GM T. If you go to Taegu let me know and I will give you directions and someone to call so you can go visit. GM Lim is a great host.

Take care
Todd Miller
Korea Jungki Hapkido & Guhapdo Assc.
www.millersmudo.com